Surviving Negative Feedback

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I got a question for you. Shoot, how many new creators do you think stop creating the thing they're creating?

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they got negative feedback about the thing that they've created.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to Beyond A Post with Robb Dunwoord and Bodie Grimm. I'm Rob Dunwoord.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Bodie Grimm. And on today's episode, we are going to talk about feedback.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And specifically, Negative Feedback. Because positive feedback, everybody who loves and there's

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: really not much to say, it makes you feel good and you move on with your day. But negative feedback can

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of destroy your enthusiasm if it's not put in the right way. So Robb and I are going to talk about

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: some different ways to deal with Negative Feedback. Now, Negative Feedback gets a bad rap because

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you can consider maybe constructive feedback as negative. So we're going to talk about

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: three different types of negative feedback. The hateful Negative Feedback, we're going to talk

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: about constructive feedback and then non-constructive feedback. And actually,

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe we'll talk about non-constructive feedback first and we'll finish with constructive feedback.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think, Rob? I think this is a great conversation now. I need to warn you, Bodie.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to warn our listeners and our viewers that I am one of those people who suffers from excessive

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: self-confidence. So the way that I'm wired, I might deal with feedback a little different than

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say the average person. Also, man, I got pushing 20 years of doing this. So I got a lot of leather.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So I can't wait to get into this conversation because you and I really haven't done a lot of

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: talking about this particular topic and we're kind of doing it fresh right here in the episode.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know this is an idea you came up with. So what made you think about an episode about

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: feedback, particularly negative feedback? So I recently had an episode where I interviewed somebody

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: on my EV podcast. And she talked about different things that we could do as a world

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: community in the world to reduce the need for mining. And there was lots of different things that

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: they talked about. This was a report that was written by the University of Sydney, I think it was.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't like just somebody got on the podcast and started spouting nonsense. This was actually

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: a report generated by people who work at universities and people attend universities.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I got a piece of feedback back that was, I hate it. I usually like your show,

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but I really hate it when people try to shove things down my throat. I don't want to live the way

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: this woman wants to live. There's a lady that was on the show. And I did not enjoy this interview.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Now that is paraphrasing because the comment was a little bit longer than that. It wasn't,

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, hateful in any way shape or form, but it was negative feedback and it wasn't

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly constructive feedback. Because in my view, that's not what she was saying. She wasn't trying to

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: shove anyone's or any of her own ideas down anybody's throat. She was trying to make people aware

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of here are some things that we can do to reduce mining. So that's kind of like after I answered

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: his email, I was like, okay, this is probably a good topic for beyond the post.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it sounds like it because when I look at the feedback, if it's, I love feedback. I want people

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: to tell me how I'm doing, how they think I'm doing, what I could do better, what they liked,

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: what they didn't like. I am a fan of that because I believe that it ultimately helps you in

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: case of us. We're podcasters, it helps us build better podcasts. You know, we write email new letters.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it helps us write better in the email newsletters when we get feedback on the consumers what

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: they actually think. So anytime feedback is constructive, I am a fan of it where I tend to

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't like this. I don't like you. I don't like your guests and you suck.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And as I said, that kind of commentary doesn't really move me at all. It's like, so

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to bad you didn't like it. I guess we won't be hearing from you again because

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you didn't like the show and people tend not to listen to things that they don't like.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a different world that we're living in now. Now it's not that people don't just

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: think that things that they don't like, they in many cases will email or text or send DMs or

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever else to let you know of their level of discomfort or their level of dislike for what

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you've done. So once again, if it's not constructive, I'm more of a kind of push-saying kind of person,

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: as compared to when there are things that you could take away that could actually make you

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: help you improve your show. So let's get right into the negative feedback. There's nothing

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: redeemable about this kind of feedback that will help you get better or even help your show

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: in the way that it's formed or your content and the way that it's formed. Do you remember

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: do you remember the Tiki Bar TV on YouTube way back in the early 2000s? Yes, I do.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I was listening to an interview with Dr. Tiki. I don't remember what his actual first

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: name was but he was saying that he would get this negative feedback and the person was

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: interviewing said, well, do you just delete it? And he goes, no, he goes, I respond to every piece of

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: negative feedback with the goal of making them think of a human. Not with the goal of making them

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: feel bad, but with the goal of making them know that I'm out here, I read what they had to say

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know, it has an effect on me. Now I don't think, I think most people could be real

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: awful online but in private life, I don't think most people are awful. I don't think your online

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: behavior has anything to do with your most people, not everybody. Has anything to do with how you

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: interact with people in the real world in real life because there are social norms that we have set up.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: The social norms on the internet are little fuzzy sometimes. The, that, this was before I was

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: even creating content when I heard this interview and I was like, that is a great way to handle

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: this. So early on in my podcast, I used to study a lot. The audio quality was terrible. There was

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: so many things about it. That was terrible. I didn't fully understand the subject I was podcasting

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: about. I was still new to that so I couldn't even go into great detail about anything because I had

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: nothing to base it off of and I would get these horrible emails written to me and I would write

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: back, like, I'm new at this. I don't focus on my eye stutter. I don't have the equipment or know

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: how to upgrade the sound or upgrade the audio quality. I'm trying. Give me some feedback back.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And Rob, you know, we're talking about this before we started recording. Most of the time I would

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: get a response back with, hey, they would never apologize or at least I can't remember

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: they apologized. But they would, I would get a response back with, I really like how you do this.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: There would be a positive response back because I called them on their negativity. Now,

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: did I, did I shame them for it? I did not. I just explained, hey, here's where I'm coming from.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really sensitive about my stutter and I am. But as soon as you make yourself human to those folks,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't, sometimes they don't come back and they, they won't respond. But for me in my personal

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: experience, most people have responded to those type of emails and they respond with something

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: positive. And that's where we can work on a better solution. Maybe there is something about

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: my show that they don't like, but they can't necessarily express it so they just come out with a

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: bunch of vitriol that doesn't, isn't helpful for anybody. Now, I'm not saying everybody should do this because

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you're kind of open in a Pandora's box. My full-time career, the biggest part of my job is roasting

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: each other at the kitchen table. So I have a high tolerance for insults and not everybody does.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So this may not be a solution that you want to do. How do you do with it, Rob?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I looked, so we talked about Tiki Bar TV. That was very, very early, you two.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think today we are in a different world of just the level that people, the kind of content

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that people will put out to let you know their displeasure about something on the internet.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: That's different than it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. It really is.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So I keep that in mind. That being said, you know, I'll learn this, you know, it might have been,

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it was either high school debate class, it might have been in college and debate or something like that.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But there is this thing you can do and you're kind of mentioning it. If you basically have someone who

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: lashes out at you and you can see their point, maybe they they expressed it very, very strongly,

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: more so than what you would like. But there is a point to be had in there.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you agree with their point or at least, can see that what you have a point, I'm going to

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: acknowledge it, you can do this thing to where it's kind of like, you know, if you ever

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: seem like a, you know, a puppy or a young dog, I guess that is what a puppy is, you know,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you have a young dog that it rolls over on his back and has got his paws up and you can go

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: play with me and I'm playing with you. And if you are in a situation where you, you kind of do that,

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you show your underbelly to someone who is giving you negative feedback and they still keep

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: handling the point, hammering the point. And it's kind of like you did this thing and it was really,

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: really wrong. It's like, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry, but I want to try to get better.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you should have never did it in the first place. Like you're right. We're trying to

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: want to get better. The third time they come back around when I'm basically showing you my underbelly

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like, you're right, I'm agreeing with you that we could have done this in a different way,

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: or that we're going to try better for you the next time. But for me, by the time we come back around

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: for the third time, I am no longer stripping line. I'm basically going to start matching energy at that

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: point. So what I have learned is, I don't want to get into Twitter wars, or I should say,

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess there are X wars now. I don't want to spend enormous amounts of time in comments going back

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and for for folks on things that simply won't matter. If someone generally is that upset with

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: content that I've put out where they're no longer a listener. So does it make sense for me to

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: continue to engage with someone who is not accepting of, you know what? You're right. That's a good

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: point. We're going to try this better next time. Let us know what you think and he just keep coming

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: with the whip and you're just cracking because you did it wrong the first time. I don't respond

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: well to that. So I generally just tend not to respond. But once again, that is just a me thing

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that is not necessarily an everyone thing. Yeah, it's important to mention that there's a difference.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're obviously there's a difference for somebody who is just like this was a terrible episode

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're like, yep, gotcha. Noted we're going to do better and then the person who just wants

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to continue to argue those people you're never going to make happy, never, ever, ever, ever. I don't

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: genuinely don't know why you would want to waste your energy and even three times after the second

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: time is like, this isn't the show for you. I think this was a Mark Twain quote. I hope I'm not

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: miscoiting Mark Twain but I've heard this and it's about stupid people and it's like never

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: argue with stupid people they will, you know, what is it? They will beat you with experience drag

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: or no they will drag you down to beat you with experience. You just cannot win those type of arguments.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel the same way when you start getting into the, you know, the comment wars

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: where you just go and back and forth because you're not going to resolve anything. In the case of

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that person they actually may be a troll with their getting from as the fact that you're engaging

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: with them and they're getting your blood pressure raised. That may be their whole goal. Their goal

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: may not to be instructor. The goal may simply be can I get a rise out of this person that creates this

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: so, you know, I've been doing this for a while. I tend not to get into too many of those types

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of spats any longer. There was a day when you could take me there. I think just, you know, maturity

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and age have kind of calm me down on that. But those aren't the only type of comments that we get.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that another, you know, another nature of the way you may get negative feedback is

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: someone is telling you, hey, this, this did this or you said this thing and it affected me this way

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: or you did this or you did not do that. And this is why it's problematic and it actually

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: gives you an explanation. It's not good. It doesn't make it feel good but there is at least a

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: constructive nature to how something was delivered. I think you and I both would probably treat

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: those type of comments in a different way. Yeah. So that kind of even goes back a little bit

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to the interview that I had in the negative comment. Listen, I don't have any, I highly doubt

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: this person since it's this particular show but I don't have any problem with this comments.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: The interview made him feel away and when you have those visceral reactions, your feelings

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: are real to you. It's not maybe necessarily real to everybody else around you but they're definitely

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: real to you so I want to respect the person who left the comments as well as the, you know, my

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: guest. But, you know, the person who left these comments lives in a rural area and probably

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, drives a truck has got to be interested in new visceral listening to my show.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I could see why the thought of, you know, some organization come in and making a community where

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: he lives in, I'm not going to, where he lives, but he lives in a pristine, you know, rural community

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that's quiet in the kind of life that he wants to leave. Live, excuse me. You know, he wouldn't

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily want somebody building a community right next to that life that he built. I completely

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: get that that makes sense. So in the way that this person left the negative feedback,

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't feel like there was much validity on mice, not that there wasn't validity to it because

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to minimize this comments. I didn't feel like there was much in the way that could have

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: been changed. I disagreed with his viewpoint as what I'm trying to say there, but one thing that is

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe can be put on me as you know Rob, I do a lot of editing and I edit for time and I edit for

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: clarity. And I did edit that podcast. So there may be things that my guests said that I edit it out

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe that was some clarifying information that might have been needed to be put into that

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: back into that interview. Now I'm not going to go do it, it's out. There's nobody's

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: going to go back and listen to an interview twice to get 30 seconds of updated information. But

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I might have edited in a way that showed my viewpoint and maybe that was kind of what made

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: him feel that way, not maybe not necessarily the interview, but maybe the actual way that I edited it.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand where you go with that and there are times when I will see someone, you know,

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you're making a good point, but just disagree with it. And sometimes it's okay for me to lose a viewer,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to lose a listener simply because I hold a viewpoint that they disagree with and they can't

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: get past it. That's okay, you know there are 7 million people who actually more as I'm looking

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to get this for pushing closer to 8 billion people in the world. You're not going to have the same

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: viewpoint as all of them and as a content creator. If you are trying to please everyone and make

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: sure you're creating a show that everyone is going to absolutely love and normal,

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: ever give you any feedback for, you're going to have the most bland boring show that will have

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: very few listeners, viewers, or if it's a newsletter, very few readers. If it's social media

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: account, very few followers because you're not creating content where there is potential

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: for conflict. So it's just vanilla. Now I'm not saying that you need to go out here and

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: create, you know, clickbait, take content. That is not what I'm saying. But there are times when

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in the creation of my content, I want to take a stance that may not be popular and that's okay.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It may not be popular but it's my stance and because I'm creating the content,

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel okay putting it out there and then will accept that, well I don't agree with this.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that you don't agree. I'm not changing the show because you don't agree.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that you don't agree and I acknowledge that this may not have been the content for you.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So those are the kind of comments that I will actually respond to. There are ones, however,

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're just beyond the pale and they just don't delete delete delete. I just simply don't look at

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: in many cases they will automatically get flagged this spam or get flagged as a troll-type comment

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and just go to an automatic bucket and I very rarely even look at that bucket anyway. So

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I always am willing to have conversation as long as the conversation is productive when it gets

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: circular or gets to the point to where you just disagree, you don't like the guess that we had.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Does not mean I'm going to pull the post down because there may have been other people who have liked it.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I gave you an example when we started talking about this body was that

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a show that has a fairly long intro, the intro is almost a minute long

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and for every person is not regular but for every person says wow your episode are great

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but the intro is just too long I got to hit my skip button twice to get past it. I just don't like

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: every email for every message, for every comment that we get that says that there's probably

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: 20. I love your intro where did you guys get that intro done? I love how you, you know,

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: you've got all these clips of what was done in your intro. So I think sometimes you just cannot

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: please everyone and if you're trying to you're going to have some long sleepless nights because

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you will never be able to create compelling content and please everyone with it. Those two things

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: are mutually exclusive. You cannot create content that everyone will love and that everyone will

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: listen to is just simply can't work that. It shouldn't work that way. You're not able to

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: create content in that form of fashion. So having for me having done this for as long as I've been

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: doing it, I have definitely built up some tough skin. I would think things that people say today

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that maybe if they said they're 18 years ago, I might have reacted differently 18 years ago

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so that there is part of that. But I do not believe that you as a content creator

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: have to lose yourself when you're creating your content because you're worried about how someone

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: else is going to take the things you've created. Yeah, that's a good point and while you're saying

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that, Rob, I'm kind of reminded that you get the audience that you deserve. So if you are out there

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're just trying to do a bunch of clickbait and you are monetizing off of chaos, then

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you are going to get a chaotic audience. And they are going to think they can say things to you

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that they wouldn't say to normal people in polypublic. They are like their goal is to match

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: your energy. Maybe that works for you. It's certainly something that some creators do

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and some other public figures do. And that seems to work for them, but it's like eating empty

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: calories eventually you're going to pay for that. So if you're creating a show and you're putting

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: your, you're just trying to, you're not trying to cause controversy but you're not staying

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: away from controversy and you get a negative stray comment here there. Don't let that stop you

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: from being a content creator. Like Robin, I post our emails at the end of the show or

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I know we put them in the show notes. You know, all throughout here should be an email. Get a

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: negative comment, should be an email. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about how to handle it whether

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: or not it's something that you should be concerned about. Like this, the creating is kind of

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: our in podcast with. We have a creator community. So if we come across some of this stuff,

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we can say, hey, look at this comment, we can laugh about it or we can say, is this valid?

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Because maybe I'm missing something here and you know, we'll do that for you. Like I don't want

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to volunteer Robbs time but I'll do that for you. The whole point of this podcast is that we're

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: creating together, you know. The thing is because we're kind of coming up on our time here Rob.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about non our constructive criticism because this can hurt, it had to

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: paint on the kind of person you are. This constructive criticism can hurt. It could be delivered in a way

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that isn't always the nicest way or you take it as not always the nicest way but you can also

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: you can also get like valuable information out of this. There's a couple ways that I look at

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: at constructive criticism and where I get it and where I take it from. So, you know, fortunately

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: for me, for us, Body, I think that we have created communities in ways around our content.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are ways to become members of this community. And I'm just going to be honest,

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: if you are a member of my community and you are rocking with my content week after week after week,

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be much more receptive to your criticisms, to your, you know, to your praise,

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: to your criticisms, to your, you know, is a great show or wasn't a great show. Simply because

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you're part of a community and you are showing up every week. As compared to people who are

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: showing up anonymously now on most of the content that I create, I don't easily give the opportunity

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: for someone to just comment in a way where they are completely, what is the word? They're

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: completely anonymous to me. I don't, so if you go to like my website, I don't have comments

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: open on my website because they can just, they just become a bastion of just nastiness that

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't want to have to deal with. So I've done things like, well, we'll create a discord

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: community and, and you can get some pretty cost-to-stuff inside of a discord community. Don't get

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: wrong, but generally when the person goes through, okay, I want to go join this community. They're

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: not joining it to be a troll. They're generally joining it because they want to be a member of

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: the community. So the fact that they, you know, are coming in and they're part of the community,

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I tend to look at that type of, you know, those types of criticisms a little bit more.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But basically, I'm going to give them a few more points than I would just get someone random off

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: to the internet that I don't know. They don't know me and they just happen to hear one thing

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that was said by, you know, by myself or by a guest or by another host on a show that they just

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't like and now they're running against it. I don't give that type of commentary as much

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: credence as I would if it was someone in the community that said it because it's just like this.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There could be someone across the world that says, I don't like your show, Body, but if you don't

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: know them, you don't really feel bad about it as if it were somebody who you know says, hey,

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: listen to your show, dude, I just don't like it. That means something when it's someone that you know.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I kind of look at, you know, the constructive criticism, I definitely want that and

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I act for it from people who I know are listening to the show so that they can actually give me

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: constructive criticism. You can't just listen to one episode and say, you're the most terrible

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast or in the world because it may have just been an episode you didn't resonate with. There's

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you would have if you had the opportunity to listen. So, that's kind of one of the takes is

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: not my only take but that's one of the takes I have on just even the type of constructive

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: criticism that I'm willing to pay attention to. The folks that send you constructive criticism

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: well there's two points to this. One is that constructive criticism can be sandwiched in a

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: bunch of really just negative stuff that is just them spouting and then there might be a piece of

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: constructive criticism in there that you could use. You just kind of have to decide for yourself,

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to deal with that. But that constructive criticism when you respond to the person

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's like, tell me more about this, give me some more of your thoughts on this, maybe you

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: make a change, maybe you don't but those create invested listeners. Like when somebody says, hey,

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you should do this this and this and if you probe them and ask them why and then you

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: explain you are side of it, those people feel more invested in your show. I had somebody once

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because my my, my, my EV show is a modified version format based off of daily tech news show.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I have an EV section I have a Tesla section in the EV section I start with short stories

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can just talk real quick and then I go into the meat of it and then I have a break

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: who should use the kilo of patreon break and then I talk about Tesla and I do that I just repeat

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that format for Tesla, right? I had somebody say, hey, your episode title was whatever was, you know,

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the cyber truck or whatever. You waited until the very end, the very end to talk about cyber truck.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I listened to this episode so that I could hear about the cyber truck and you waited till the end,

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: put it at the front and I said, yep, but I want people to listen to the entire show.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a teaser. That titles a teaser. It's there so that you listen to the entire show.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a specific naming episode naming convention that I do sometimes I name it something funny,

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes I name it what's in the show, sometimes I name it the main topic of the show.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But so when I replied to him and I explained why that was he goes, yeah, I'm just not going to listen

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's like, okay, good luck. I think that's great. This isn't your show. But yeah, for me to take

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the thing that everybody would want or most people would want to listen to and just put it at the top so they

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: could stop listening, that's a different show. That's not my show.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to give you a piece of constructive criticism that I received very early on in my podcast

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and career. And it came from Allison Sheridan from the NoCylicass podcast. She was a guest of

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: large earlier this season on me on the post. And this is very early on. We're talking about 2008,

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: 2000, this is probably maybe 2009, 2010 and she sends a message to myself from my co-host.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm paraphrasing because like said, this is something that was written over a decade ago.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But she's like, I love the three of you. I love the content that you guys are creating,

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: but I simply can't listen to it. You are clipping all over the place. It sounds horrible.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And she was right, it did. But she didn't stop there. She was like, here is a application called

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: level later. It's free. You can download it and then she sent a guide, a document that she created

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: on how to use it specifically for our show and clean it up. And then she sent a file that she had

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: downloaded. She basically downloaded our episode, ran it against the level later and then said

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: this back and said, hey, listen to the difference between using this tool and not using this tool.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I met Allison Sheridan. And that is arguably the most constructive,

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it was the most constructive and useful criticism I've ever gotten in. It was very,

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: very early on in my career because she didn't just complain about it. She said, I love your show.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I love what you guys are doing. The problem is I just can't listen to it. You're killing my

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: ear drums. Here is how you fix this. That kind of, that, you know, I don't expect most people

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: because Allison isn't most people. She is exceptional. This is the kind of person that she is.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She literally probably spent, you know, I would say a good half hour to 45 minutes.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Reproducing a second-ever show to show us that if we use this tool,

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: this is what you could sound like. And as I said, Body, that was so long ago that the

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: tool, level later, I don't think they've made that tool probably in seven, eight years. It's been

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: a minute. So we have to go back a long time to win even that tool was available. But those are the

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of things that are very, very constructive. I said, I'm not expecting anyone to become an

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: audio engineer to help you fix your audio. That is, you know, you have to be an Allison Sheridan

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: do that. It's kind of things. But when you can offer someone, you know, a piece of commentary

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and you don't start off with you suck your terrible. It is like, hey, I like what you're doing.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you did this, it may land a little better. If you said it this way, it may land a little

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: better. If you said this, it may not be, you know, ableist in one way or another. Those kind of pieces

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of commentary are, oh, you know what? I never thought about that. That's a very good point.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me think, I don't want to just offend people when not even realizing I'm doing it. Let me

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00]: fix that about the way that delivered this content. Those type of comments to me are welcome

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and very, very helpful in helping someone to grow and put out a better piece of content.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've just to echo the same thing. Like, I met Allison in

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: 2019 and fewer to track the quality of my podcast before I met Allison. And after there's an

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: exponential improvement after because herner's husband's Steve are both very good in giving constructive

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: feedback. And then also actionable items that help you get better. If you get some, uh, if you get

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: some constructive criticism from Allison Sheridan and has anything to do about with audio or anything

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: like that, you want to pay attention to it because I said it probably didn't just come as a random

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: comment. Probably came as a comment along with a PDF, along with a zip file with some examples of

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: before and after if you were to fix the thing she was talking about, she is absolutely brilliant

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: in the way that she helps people improve their audio. And she just doesn't because she just likes

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: good content. It's like, hey, I like good content. I like the listen to, I can't listen to the

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: buzz with everything. Herner husband or both engineers, one, I had my Allison's a mechanical

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: engineer, Steve's an electrical engineer. And the things that they do like one time rub and this

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is off-track topic but one time they were telling me about how they put a couple of water in the

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: microwave to see if a boil's faster in the middle or if it's on the sides. And they had a whole

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: like spreadsheet. This is what they do as a couple. And it's no different. They put that same amount

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of love and energy into trying to help other people. Even people they don't know necessarily

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: even know. They are two of the most curious people that I know. And it's like, you know,

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know the answer to this. So let's go do test. It figured out. Like I said,

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that if you ask me about curious people and people who like to figure things out,

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll send Steve come to mind. But anyway, Baudi is anything else we want to talk about as far

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: as constructive criticism before we move on? No, I think that's, I think that's it Rob. The biggest

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: thing about this is don't take any of the stuff personally. Like even though you put a lot of

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself into your show and to a very degree, you let people know about what's going on in your

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: life. Like we talked to Lamar, he's like you know like 10% of what's going on in my life. But he's

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: a creator that's on the internet almost every single day. Allison, same creator, you know a lot

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: about Allison's life. If you listen to Allison, if you listen to Lizons, if you listen to Allison's show,

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you know about her grandchildren, you know about her kids, you know about her friends. She puts all

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff out there. So you're putting yourself out there, you're making yourself vulnerable. If you

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: get a negative feedback comment or you get some negative feedback and you're like man, this is really

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: effective me. Don't worry about that. That's okay. It's a, it's a, it's their problem. It's not your

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: problem. Yeah, that is, that is the big thing for me. If you are a creator and you're putting

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff out for public consumption. And when you, when you really think about it, it's not like we're

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: going back to the early 80s to where you wrote a book and you put a book out and you only would see

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the people who took the time to write you a letter to tell you about the book that you could read.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Which people clearly they did that back then. Now it takes no effort for someone to give you feedback.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And because of that, you're going to just get trolls that there is trollist behavior out there

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and my recommendation is don't let those folks win. Don't let them get you to a point to where

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't want to create because you don't like what someone else is saying. But, you know,

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: delete and block are wonderful features inside of pretty much every social media platform

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and email application that you could imagine. Block and, you know, block and delete. This is

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of people who are creators and I've seen people who spoke on this, it's like the

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: things that people will say to me because they just disagree is crazy. And if I were to go and read

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: all those comments, it would affect my mental health. So, I just know, I just block and delete.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I leave the comments to where, you know, not everything doesn't be, you know, you know,

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: roses and cookies but if it is constructive and you're not attacking me personally or attacking me as

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: person or as who I am, I can roll with you. But anytime it moves into, you know, personal attacks

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: or you simply are not making any co-e, you know, any, you know, any, any points that are,

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, any co-junct points. You simply are just complaining because there's someone on the other end

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of the social media platform that is willing to listen to you complain. Just don't engage with those

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: folks and move on because those folks are never going to be your tribe. They're never going to be the

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: people who are following you that would support you and actually give you constructive criticism anyway.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to build in public here a little bit. I think this topic is important enough.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we don't put any of it behind the paywall. I mean, obviously, our Patreon supporters will get

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the beginning that, you know, the more informal beginning and the more informal ending.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But maybe we just leave this all up for everybody to listen to. That's all.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, Robin, I have email addresses that's Baudi, BODIE at nine one eight digital. FM.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I cut that right. Robbs is Robbs Robb with two bees at nine one eight on the post at FM.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Did I say, I need to show you. So, so proud. So proud.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So what are you doing? I know that the email you get everything goes near.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, you could do BODIE at beyond the post at FM. You could do Robb at beyond the post dot FM.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Why can you do that because this show is made beyond the post FM or dot FM and we created

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: emails specifically for the show. Goodness gracious. So, Tom, sorry about that.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I say it too much. I say it too much and we also have a Patreon which is beyond the post dot FM

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: for slash Patreon. And thank everybody for listening in Patron's standby because Robb and I are going

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to discuss my inability to remember my own email address for this show.