The Art of Community Building with Corey Gumbs (Part 1)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, Robb and I would like to welcome you all to Season 3 of Beyond the Post. We've got some good interviews and Between the Post episodes coming up for you, but let's start with Episode 1. Corey Gumbs is a podcast development strategist and community builder who works with content creators, entrepreneurs, and businesses to create audience-driven ecosystems based around their podcast and content delivery platforms.

[00:00:28] Corey is also the founder of the Black Podcasters Association, BPA, a community for black podcast creators and professionals providing a network of support and education for like-minded people. In his spare time, Corey runs Black Pod News, a great newsletter dedicated to black podcasters, professionals in the industry, reaching thousands of readers weekly across the globe. And lastly, Corey Gumbs is my friend, so this is weird to interview somebody who I consider a personal friend. What's going on, my man?

[00:00:56] How you guys doing? Thank you for having me here. Can I just add something to that? I got to add this one. I am also on the board of directors of AIR, Independent Association for Radio Producers and Podcasters. So you're not going to let me get to the stuff during the interview. You're just going to go ahead and put all your stuff up front. I mean, you do mine. All right. Like airmedia.org? Yeah, airmedia. Yep. Oh, I belong to that. I don't know if I paid recently, but yeah. I sit on the board, so. Right on.

[00:01:26] Oh, so you're just going to flex right off the top of the show. But anyway, man, we are happy to have you hanging out with us to come and talk with us specifically about communities and why community is important. And one of the things when Bodie and I were thinking about our season three and we knew that community was one of the things we wanted to talk about as one of the pillars for this season and basically tell a story around it.

[00:01:54] I'm like, well, who do I know that could talk about communities? It's like, oh, wait a minute. I know. I know. I've known him since before he started it and, you know, have continued to, you know, to get to know you even better since you have. So so so basically just getting into it. Black Podcasters Association, BPA. Hey, I am a founding member. I know what it is. But can you tell our audience what is the Black Podcasters Association?

[00:02:22] It's a community for black podcasters and executives or support staff that would be like editors, marketers, you know, those kind of roles in the podcasting industry. And it serves three purposes. One is the community, which would be support, networking. Two would be education and three advocacy. We need it. We don't have any professional organizations that advocate for marginalized voices inside the industry.

[00:02:51] And that was one of the main driving points for me even considering starting a community was to ensure that we had a space where where our voices collectively could be heard as one. So so one of the things that I knew that I know about the BPA is that it didn't start off as a paid community. In fact, I don't even know that we've even mentioned that it is it is a paid community. So every member pays membership dues to be a member of this community.

[00:03:18] But before you started it, you actually had BPA as a Facebook group that was just free for anyone to join. And I think you had probably a couple thousand members of of the free group. How did you make the transition from going to a free group to a paid group? And, you know, ultimately, what led you to starting the BPA? So the dues part, I always I always wanted to monetize it. I just didn't know how to when I first started.

[00:03:46] And I was trying to figure that part out when I started the Facebook group. I know I had an idea of what I wanted to bring to the group and I knew that was going to cost money. And I knew that the fastest way or probably the easiest way to do it would be to have membership dues. So like to bring in course, you know, to do courses and to do education and workshops and pay people for their time to come do it. That money had to come from somewhere.

[00:04:09] And that was the part I was trying to figure out while working inside the Facebook ecosystem, which actually wasn't really conducive to like it was good for people to come together and talk and get advice and have conversations with. But to take it to the next level that I wanted to just Facebook just wasn't the platform for me in regards to that. How I started it, it was real simple.

[00:04:34] I was complaining to a friend one day about just the experience I was having and I was seeing other people having inside of some of the Facebook groups at the time that were, you know, that were based on podcasting. And I was just, I was noticing like disconnecting, like I'll call it cultural disconnects in regards to how content should be consumed or how people should be talking about what they want to talk about on their podcast. And I was just feeling a certain way about it. And I could have been reading conversations wrong. I don't know.

[00:05:03] But some of the interactions I had with people outside of Facebook and just hearing about their experiences, I was complaining to a friend and she was like, well, start your own group. And, you know, I like Jordan. I took it personally and I was like, all right, I will. So, like, you're not going to challenge me and then be like, you know, call me out and say, well, why are you complaining when you can just start your own? And I was like, well, let's see what can happen. Now, the truth of the matter was I didn't know. I don't I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have no idea.

[00:05:30] I just knew I was like, you know, I want to have a group where we can be ourselves. And it was also part for me was also trying to figure out how we could raise the standard of our content, because at that time, a lot of bad content was out there. Bad audio. So just it was just, you know, it was just the I mean, still the Wild West in the podcast space. But it was like really the Wild West. This is like right when the pen right before the pandemic happened.

[00:05:54] And and I was just like, where how can we have a conversation here and saying, you know, in our own way of saying you need to step your game up without being disrespectful or rude or anything. But also saying, well, here are the supports and here's the place where you can come to get learn how to step your game up and get better at what you're doing. And so I knew that was the basis of like, OK, if we're going to do this, this has to be taking us to the next level. I just didn't know how to go about that. And then the pandemic happened and then everything just kind of like took a life of its own.

[00:06:24] And it was just it just steamrolled into a big group of thousands of people. So I want to I want to I we have pre-prepared questions, but I want to go left a little bit here. What were some of the challenges of starting your community? Obviously, you said you're starting it in the pandemic. You didn't know quite what you were doing. And that's that's a lot of us when we started off into this these things. So what were some of the challenges of getting your community up and running?

[00:06:48] I mean, you can even start with getting folks on your Facebook page and then transferring them over your Facebook group and transferring them over to an actual paid community. What were those challenges? Oh, I think the biggest challenge. So when we started the group, we you know, like a lot of times you start a Facebook group, you invite all your friends and, you know, and sometimes they invite their friends. And so we started with like 200 people. Most of them are probably non podcasters, to be honest with you.

[00:07:19] You know, my friend, she's she co-started the group with me because she ran for his Facebook groups before. So she was kind of like mentoring me in that space. So she invited some people. I invited some people and we started with that. And then when the pandemic happened, it just kind of just I guess people will, you know, because it was called the Black Podcasting Group. It was very straightforward. We just people just started joining. And it just kind of like just, you know, just took on a life of its own there. But the biggest challenge for me was like, well, I have this group.

[00:07:48] I have all these people joining. But what do I give them? Like what is I had an idea of what I wanted to give them, but I just didn't know how to put it together. That was like the biggest challenge for the first couple of months. And then when it took off, moderating the group. And even if you have a paid community, you still have to figure out how to moderate and keep things within a bounds. That makes it respectful to everybody that's a part of it. So it was that part I had to figure out.

[00:08:13] People like Rob and some other people stepped up and started, you know, they I would say it was an interesting experience because the community itself started to create its own culture. And it was up to me to foster it and nurture it and guide it in the direction that I wanted it to go to. So that, you know, so that when I did move over to the new platform, which is what happened and I kind of predicted it, I knew exactly who was going to come over because of their engagement inside the group and how they felt about the group.

[00:08:43] But the biggest challenge for me was removing myself from the equation. For the first couple of months, I was the one trying to get the conversation going, trying to get this going, trying to get that going. And it was like I was not getting the response I was expecting from people. And it was frustrating. It was to the point where I was like, this is a waste of time. This is not working. I should shut it down. My friend at the time would be like, Corey, just power through it. You'll figure it out. You'll figure it out.

[00:09:12] You know, I was shutting down the group at least twice a week. But that to me, that was one of the biggest challenges. The other challenge was trying to convince people how to not convince people, but how do I give you the value to make this a no brainer decision? And because we were coming from a Facebook group, a lot of it was, hey, this is what we plan on doing because we haven't done it yet because it was limited to what Facebook allowed us to do. So it was like, how do I put that together?

[00:09:38] And how do I convince people that this is the direction we're going to go into and have them have faith in me that I'm actually can pull it off and be willing to pay me for it or pay for it? I should say because it pays to keep the community going. So that was to me, those are the biggest challenges. So I think and then just, you know, just what kind of making sure the content stays in alignment with what you want it to be versus. So I had to start shutting down people posting. I had to start approving posts because people were spamming.

[00:10:07] And when I started doing that, that's when the content of the community actually went up because it wasn't being, what's the word, disturbed by people spamming and being, you know, being selfish in a way of just saying, hey, I want to take from this group what I can take from it. So we didn't do self-promotion. We didn't do advertising, spamming, all that stuff went out the window. So that nurtured actual conversations because the only thing that got approved was somebody asking a question or wanting to start a conversation. But those were the biggest challenges for me.

[00:10:36] So you made two points. The first one was that you had to remove yourself from being the content for the group. Yeah. And Bodhi, you and I, we've talked about this before in speaking about groups, but the signs and the marks of a really good group, a good community is when it's not just the host of the group spitting out information to the members and the members spitting information back to the host.

[00:11:04] It's when the actual members are starting to have conversations amongst themselves. So I think that it's, you know, you know, your story there's kind of telling because in the beginning it is going to be you because it's your group and people are kind of just sitting inside. I don't know. Okay. What's this about before I post? They need to see somebody else doing it. So you kind of have to do that as the, you know, as the leader of the group. But eventually it is to get it to where you aren't responsible for all the content that exists in the group.

[00:11:30] It is getting other people to actually have conversations and create content and ask questions and partner and, you know, do collaborations amongst themselves. So I thought that was a really key point. Yeah. And with all that moderation, I can't imagine how exhausting that was with 200 people in the group. It was, it was, I have an, well, I fixate. So me too, buddy. I was fixated on it. I used to call it obsessive person. Now I know what it is.

[00:12:00] It's more of a fixation. So for me, it was like, it was 24 seven. Like I would literally be, I mean, Robert used to hear the jokes. He probably said it a couple of times himself. I was like, Corey, you don't, I get off of, I get off the internet. You're on it. When I get on it, you're still on it. I still see you posting. And it's like, yeah, like, you know, like the thing that the job has to get done. And at the time, you know, it was really just me running everything. So I was so fixated that I will, you know, I would take a nap and then get up and then get back to work again.

[00:12:28] You know, and while, while everybody's sleeping, I'm up trying to figure out how do I get people engaged? What do I need to do? Am I, do I want to continue? Why did I do this to myself? Like you go through the whole gambit of everything. Like, wow, this was a crazy idea. Why would you do this to yourself? You know, maybe you should shut this down. This is not working. And then somebody says, I love the group. And then you're like, the fire is rekindled. So it is definitely a lot. Yeah.

[00:12:54] You know, and that's like Rob and I, another thing we always say is like, it's really lonely trying to do this kind of thing. Right. And one of the people we interviewed is Allison Sheridan. She does the pod feet podcast. No, Silicast. And Allison said that she did one. Was it one episode? And then she's like, I'm done. And then somebody emailed her after one episode and said, hey, where's the rest? And that was it. She was like 19 years of continuous podcast releases. Without missing a week. Without missing a week.

[00:13:23] Without missing a week. So yeah. One positive email. Turn that around. So, Corey, you've spoken on, you know, from your side why you started BPA and some of the, you know, just some of the things that you go through as a brand new group, you know, administrator, you know, group owner. But what would you say are some of the advantages for members of joining the group?

[00:13:47] What, you know, you know, why do you, you know, why do you have a couple hundred folks that are paying monthly or yearly to be in BPA? You know, what is the advantage? You know, what are the benefits to people who actually join? I'm going to say this one. And it came, it's not a, it's not an actual benefit. Like as a company, we're about saying, hey, this is what you get from it. And the one, the one thing I will say, always say I got from people is I thought I was in this by myself.

[00:14:16] And by them being members of the BPA, they, they, they, they talk with other members in the BPA. They connect, they join, they, they network with, they start working, collaborating on projects together. That changes to, I'm so glad I did this because, you know, the world just opened up to them. Like that frustration. But if I'm going to talk about the actual association. We plan on actually creating our academy now. We, you know, as you know, Rob, we did monthly workshops.

[00:14:45] We do monthly workshops. We have people from different spaces come in and talk to the community, whether it's companies about their tech, technology or product to people who are like PR or do self-help or that kind of stuff. Because there's so many different elements to this podcasting space that people don't think about. The soft and the hard skills that I'm constantly thinking about and watching and paying attention to. I think the workshops, the courses, we're working on some courses.

[00:15:14] We do, we do events every year. We do our summer social. We're going into our fourth one this year. I have another one that's possibly in the works that's going to be outside of New York City. So I'm excited about that. We have a collaboration with Afros and Audio Podcast Festival in which our members get a significant deep discount on your tickets to that festival. Our members get exclusive voting on certain categories inside of the Black Podcasting Awards.

[00:15:42] You get the community aspect where you get to meet with wonderful podcasters like Rob, network with people like Rob, some Ambie Award winners, Webby Award winners, producers. We have marketers. We have editors that you can tap into. And for 2025, I'm planning on rolling out our first network. That's what I'm working on right now is producing some shows behind the scenes as well as for members. What else we got going to play?

[00:16:11] We definitely have some courses on like how to become a podcast producer. I just finished a meeting yesterday. We're going to be doing a meeting about data collection. We'll have somebody that's going to come and start teaching members how to create feedback forms for data collection and stuff like that. So you get those kind of access to those kind of things in our community. And we're a very collaborative community. So we associate with other communities as well and work with them. So a lot of times you get opportunities from that to access their platforms as well.

[00:16:41] That is so interesting. Is this your part-time job or are you doing this full-time? This is my life. Yeah, buddy. It sounds like it's your life, honestly. That's a lot of work. I got a little gig. You pay the bill. You pay the rent. But I'm trying to move away from that. And I'll say this too. As members, you get three free months of membership to air as well. So you get that as well. But yeah, I do this. This is my life.

[00:17:08] Even when I'm working other jobs and stuff, I'm thinking about this. I'm working on this. And that's the thing about running a community. It's not a nine-to-five type of job. You have to constantly keep figuring out how you're going to bring more value to the community. My goal is to turn us into a global entity. So I have to constantly think about what are the needs of not just podcasters here in America, but going on in other places. So I'm constantly speaking with people in other areas, you know, in Latin America.

[00:17:35] And I've been connecting with some people in Latin America, people in Africa, even people in Europe. We have partnerships with people in Canada. So, you know, it's constantly just trying to figure out how do I bring more value to our community and how do I get us on a global scale? Because that's the goal is to become an international organization. So, Corey, just for, you know, just changing gears a little bit, you know, when it comes to creating a community.

[00:18:04] Now, I know you've actually created a community for community's sake. I mean, you know, your community is the thing. It doesn't support something else. Other things support the community. But many of our listeners and viewers are some type of creator, whether they be a podcaster or a YouTuber or a author or something like that. But someone who's creating content.

[00:18:26] And so a lot of folks who listen to Beyond the Post, they are thinking about community to support some other work they're doing. You know, I know there's, you know, they're not exact, you know, one-to-one matches where your community is, you know, is the thing. But do you have any, you know, any thoughts for anyone, you know, who is a creator? Let's talk about podcasting since you are the Black Pod, you know, the founder of the Black Podcasters Association.

[00:18:53] Should creators, should podcasters think about actually creating communities to go along with their podcast or with their YouTube channel or anything like that? So, yes, I'm in the podcasting space, but I've learned so much about building community and what it means to people. I think people forget sometimes, you know, we're human beings and we're just communal by instinct, right?

[00:19:19] And I think it's important for you to have some kind of community aspect around whatever product or business that you have, because that's how people connect. That is how people become that grassroots organization, you know, that give you that grassroots push. That's how people, you know, suggest you to other people. Like, you know, Rob, as you know, like, well, you haven't been to like an event with me yet. But when people come to me and ask me about the BPA, I don't talk about the BPA. I don't pitch it. I bring a member over and say, you need to speak to this person.

[00:19:48] And, you know, everybody hates it, Rob, by the way. I just want you to know that. When we're at conventions and stuff, they're like, oh, they hear their name and they're like, oh, man, they'll have to do this, Corey. And I'm like, yep. Because in my mind, it's like you want to understand what a community is, then you need to speak to the community members. I think the benefit is it connects people. It brings people together who normally might not ever come together. That's another thing I learned from running my community is that we've had people.

[00:20:12] We have people of different political backgrounds, religious backgrounds, you know, all kind of different backgrounds. And when I said we had a zero tolerance policy, you know, we're only here for podcasting. The culture, it's seen people working together, coming together. They've learned to put their differences to the side because they're all here for one reason. And that's the community aspect of what they're doing. So I think that's important. I think it's also good for you to get, you know, as we talk about stuff, Rob, like feedback, data.

[00:20:42] You have a place that you can actually tap into for free almost, right? Basically, you know, if I have a question, I could tap in. Or if I want to put up a form inside my community to get some kind of feedback on an idea, I have access to that. So it helps me to shape out what kind of content we should bring. And, you know, I call them heat checks. I'm always paying attention to what my members are saying.

[00:21:04] I'm always listening to where their pain points are so that I can provide the services and bring people in that can help in the system or with what they're struggling with. And by doing that, if you can help solve that problem for people, they're going to stick around. They're going to be around because they're going to understand this is an important resource to me. My pain point has been solved because I'm here and your podcast, your company, your business can do that with a community. It's a good testing ground.

[00:21:30] It's a good way to, you know, you know, if you want to have it's like a focus group at times, too. Like, I mean, you want to be honest about what you're doing. You don't want to be deceitful about why you have this community. But it's a good way to tap, you know, to tap into seeing what people are saying about what you're doing, getting a feel and connecting with people. You know, I think because of the Internet and a lot of the remote stuff, people have lost that connection. People are seeking that connection.

[00:21:55] So if you have a community where you connect, especially if you can do stuff in person, you're going to win with that group. What are some of the ways that you're receiving that feedback? Are you doing like surveys? Are you interviewing folks? I'm not the most organized person with that. But I do we do have like we do do some surveys once in a while. I'm working on I want to work on doing like for my community, a big like yearly survey.

[00:22:23] Because for what's always important for me with the community was, you know, when somebody joins a year, my goal is for a year from now, they should not be in the same position that they were in. And the only way I could do that is by bringing resources, tools or whatever what they need. Me personally, because our community is not too large, I actually have an open door policy. So I'll be like, if you have a problem, most people either have my phone number or email or they can reach out to me in the community. And, you know, if I have, you know, my schedule is open at the time, I will get on a call with them.

[00:22:51] And, you know, and I have done this where I'm like, ask members to get on a call with me. Hey, tell me what's going on. You know, like, what are you where are we at? What are your opinions? And I try to create an environment where they can speak freely because truthfully, and that's part of it, too, Rob, like removing yourself from the situation is if somebody has something negative to say, I can't take it personal because I need to listen to what they're saying so that I can turn that negative into a positive. And taking it personal is not going to allow me to do that. Does it hurt sometimes? Yes.

[00:23:21] But, you know, go go take a walk and you'll get over it. But for me, for how I do it, you know, let's get on a call. Let's talk. You know, if you have a suggestion, I want to hear it. If you if you have a recommendation, sometimes people come to me like, I wish we could do this. And I'm like, well, come help me. Let's go step up. You know, I'll challenge people, too, at times, too, to do that. So but for me, it's been just mainly reaching out. And then I watched I watched the conversations.

[00:23:50] I read the comment sections. I see what people are at. If somebody's putting up a question that's going to create a debate, I'm going to read everything on there because I want to see where everybody's perspectives are at. You know, so that's that gives me access to that. So, you know, and I'll just track it from there. So one of the things that I hear you saying about about BPA, but about community in general, is that it's it's almost like a litmus test for what's going on.

[00:24:18] People are in the community and you have a very, very, you know, quick and easy way to get feedback about what's going on. And I think that when particularly around podcasting, podcasting is a very one way type of medium. It's you know, it's a it's it's you know, we think of it as a one to many because you create one episode and then many people can consume it. But it really is almost a one to one type situation because people tend to listen to podcasts alone.

[00:24:47] I mean, you know, most people don't listen to podcasting groups of people unless they're unless they're in the car or something like that together. They're definitely listening, you know, when they're on a walk or in the car by themselves or, you know, working out or what have you. So it sounds like one of the you know, the benefits of a community that you may associate with your podcast is that you can actually have a way to make that not be just a one way. Where is the host delivering information to the community?

[00:25:16] It is a community being able to deliver information back to the host. Am I getting that right? Oh, yeah, I would agree with that. A hundred percent. Um, podcasting is alone. You know, it's lonely, especially if you're doing a solo show. Right. You there is no way you're getting feedback outside of downloads and listen time. Right. That's the that's the only true metric that tells you people are actually paying attention to what you're saying in the comment sections. Right. Or reviews.

[00:25:41] Um, but by having a community now, you now, you like you said, you create a two way conversation. Um, but they also get access to you, creates transparency, creates a connection with you outside of the creates a deeper conversation. Because if they listen to your podcast, they're already very, they're already very connected to you. Um, I also look at it as, you know, if you, if you, if you ever hit a wall about where to create content, because, you know, creating content is a creative process. And you'll have writer's block or you'll hit a creative block every once in a while.

[00:26:12] Um, it's also an easy way for you to get inspiration for content. Right. Hey, guys, you know, um, somebody might put in your community chat. You know, I like that show, but next, could you talk about this next time? Right. They just gave you a topic. And if the, and the comment section gets lit up because everybody's like, yeah, I really want that. Now, you know, you have a topic that you, you know, you're going to most likely get a very high response on downloads. And it kind of gives you that, that, that, like you said, a litmus test of like, what's working, what isn't. And you're getting feedback in real time.

[00:26:42] Now, of course, people are going to be critics and stuff like that. But you got to, you know, after a while you develop the talent of saying, okay, yeah, these people are a little critical over here. But what were they really saying that I can improve on or I can take from this to, to give them what they want without, without jeopardizing what I've built or what I'm doing. So I, for me, the biggest thing with community is the engagement part. You have to be engaged.

[00:27:05] You have to, you know, it's give and take, you know, like, like all communities, there's people who have, everybody has a specific role and, you know, and everybody's there for a common goal. So if it's one sided, it's never going to succeed. You have to give and you have to take from it. I give you all the credit in the world to give your phone number out because that's a, that's a one to many right there. And, and to take that critical feedback, that's, that's not an easy thing to do. That is, that is definitely very difficult.

[00:27:31] So, yeah, that's a, that, that is dedication, Corey. Well, you get my number because that's the fastest way to reach me. And as Rob knows, sometimes you send me a message and it might be a dare to before you hear back from me. A week or two sometimes. And then, you know, and truthfully, the crazy part is because, you know, because the communities, I have to turn off my notifications on things, which is why it takes me a while. Because if I don't consciously say, oh, let me go check WhatsApp or let me go check this.

[00:27:59] Sometimes you wind up sitting there on red until I get to it. So, so sometimes I tell, I'll get to tell certain people, if you really need to reach me, here's my number and just shoot me a text. All right. That is going to wrap up part one of Corey Gumbs's interview, but stay tuned for part two, because as you can imagine, Corey has a lot of nuggets to still share with us. And that episode will be released next week.

[00:28:28] I hope everybody enjoyed this show. Be sure to check out the Black Podcasters Association at blackpodcastersassociation.com. And you can also subscribe to Corey's newsletter, Black Pod News at blkpodnews.com. I'm a subscriber. I would highly recommend you be a subscriber as well.