Ed Bernardon talks Motorsports

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[00:01:22] Hello, everyone, and welcome to Kila Wada Podcast about electric vehicles, renewable energy,

[00:01:27] autonomous driving, and much, much more. My name is Bode, and I am your host.

[00:01:33] And I'm really excited to get to today's episode, folks.

[00:01:36] I sat down with Ed Bernardin, who is the vice president of motorsports and racing strategy

[00:01:43] for Siemens Digital Industries software. And he's also the host of the Future Car podcast.

[00:01:50] And you can tell Ed is a pro because this started off as an interview where I was interviewing Ed,

[00:01:56] and it quickly developed into a conversation. Like I had my list of questions, and they were

[00:02:01] in different categories depending on what Ed brought up. Because honestly, I don't know much

[00:02:05] about motorsports, whether it's eMotorSports or just motorsports in general. So I was very

[00:02:12] organized and had all my stuff set up. And talking to Ed is like talking to somebody

[00:02:17] that I've known honestly for years. And we just threw out the script and

[00:02:24] just had a conversation, which is my favorite way to do things, to be honest with you.

[00:02:28] Ed's a heck of a nice guy. We started the podcast off right. I had a liquid death,

[00:02:35] Arnold Palmer, or dead billionaire, which is basically iced tea and lemonade.

[00:02:40] And he started off with a, hey, are you drinking a beer right now?

[00:02:44] So that was just, we just started off on a good fit. Good foot, excuse me. Yeah, but I just really

[00:02:50] enjoyed this conversation. I hope you enjoy this conversation. I did try to squeeze in some

[00:02:55] questions here and there, but honestly, this is a conversation and I loved it. So let's go ahead

[00:03:02] and welcome Ed to the show. Bode, thanks for having me on. Great to be here.

[00:03:07] So you are the VP of Motorsports Racing Strategy, a Siemens digital. Was this your goal when you

[00:03:13] were a little boy? Did you want to be in racing? Well, I grew up in Indianapolis and that's the

[00:03:22] racing capital of the world. So the Indianapolis 500. And my parents were actually immigrants

[00:03:27] from Italy. And that was the time when Mario Andretti was like a big star there. He came

[00:03:30] from the same part of Italy as my parents. So in our family, it wasn't about basketball and baseball

[00:03:36] and football. It was about racing. And so yes, yes, I was, I think I've been to every Indian

[00:03:42] apolis 500 almost every single one since I've been in high school. So it really all started

[00:03:48] there. How do you go from being an engineer to being the VP or a VP at Siemens Digital?

[00:03:55] Well, it's actually a little bit of a twisted kind of path. But straight out of grad school,

[00:04:03] I studied controls and robotics and that type of thing. And my first job was at the Draper Labs,

[00:04:10] which is in Cambridge, Mass. And they're known for guidance systems and things like that. But

[00:04:15] they started a commercial business. And our group was developing robots to make clothes.

[00:04:22] And blue jeans, T-shirts, parts for men's suits, all sorts of stuff. Anyways, we developed all

[00:04:30] this expertise in handling flexible fabrics with robots. And then we sort of did a shift. We said,

[00:04:37] hey, carbon fiber is a fabric. And aerospace industry and the automotive industry would

[00:04:45] probably pay a lot more for robots than they would in the apparel industry. So that's when

[00:04:49] we actually shifted over to that. And we started building machines, companies like Sikorsky, United

[00:04:54] Technologies, Ford, a lot of these companies would buy our machines and utilize them.

[00:05:00] And we also figured out that so carbon fiber being a fabric, you have to distort it from

[00:05:06] a flat sheet into three dimensions. And in order to make that happen without wrinkling,

[00:05:13] because if you start to wrinkle carbon fiber, it doesn't have the strength and stiffness you

[00:05:18] we thought there might be software that could do that, but it didn't exist. And so

[00:05:21] we created it and we said, wow, we could actually make a company doing this. And four of us started

[00:05:27] a company called Composite Design Technologies, later changed to Vistogy. And I was in charge of

[00:05:35] the, I was actually, although I have an engineering background, I was actually in

[00:05:39] charge of sales for that company. We grew it from four people to about 80 and about 15

[00:05:45] million in sales. And most of our sales were to aerospace companies, like the defense giants and

[00:05:52] things like that, Boeing. But our test ground was Formula One. And that's where I developed,

[00:06:00] it was a great opportunity, right? Here's my chance to get back into motorsports.

[00:06:05] And so when we had our international strategy, it sort of went like this,

[00:06:10] it was only like four or five of us at the time. Well, let's go to the UK first. They speak English

[00:06:16] there. There's a lot of racing teams. I bet they would love that because that's the hotbed of Formula

[00:06:21] One. And over the 15, 20 years or so that we grew the company before we were acquired by Siemens,

[00:06:28] we developed a lot of relationships to this day that we still have in the Formula One business

[00:06:33] and really got to understand how, in Formula One, especially when it comes to carbon

[00:06:40] fiber and advanced materials and that type of thing, you would learn from them in a month or

[00:06:45] in a couple of months what it would take years to learn from an aerospace company where the

[00:06:49] speed of development was much slower. But anyways, we were acquired eventually. And we continued

[00:06:55] that work in carbon fiber and software for designing with it. But I took on a role,

[00:07:01] I guess you'd call it special projects. And since I had this love for racing,

[00:07:08] I was able to get funding from actually the corporate headquarters in Germany

[00:07:13] to do a project for the FIA. The FIA is the sanctioning body for Formula One and

[00:07:19] another race series too. In this particular case, we were working with the World Rally Championships.

[00:07:25] So these are off-road rally cars. And the fans for rally are really crazy. They'll like

[00:07:31] go right up to the edge of the road and stick their arms out. Sometimes their entire

[00:07:36] body is out in front of the cars. So what we did was, the goal of the project was to put autonomous

[00:07:40] car sensors into these rally cars to detect spectators are getting overly anxious, shall we say.

[00:07:46] And so they could warn the authorities to come and get them out of the way. So that

[00:07:51] was really the first project. That led to several more projects, some with hydrogen drive in vehicles,

[00:07:58] others like carbon fiber-based vehicles that had embedded sensors that were autonomous. But in any

[00:08:06] case, became sort of a center for people that were interested in racing. I was starting to get a lot

[00:08:12] of people coming to me. And so then they created this new position called VP of Motor Sports

[00:08:18] and Racing Strategy to really not to take our approach to racing less casually and

[00:08:25] really look at like, why are we doing this? And let's do it in a way that gives us the most benefits.

[00:08:30] Because it's the three things that we looked at in racing and we're still doing it now is one,

[00:08:36] it has to prove that the products that we have, which are products for engineering cars, planes,

[00:08:42] really any challenging engineering problem, we see, our division of Siemens Digital

[00:08:48] Industry Software provides solutions for that. But it has to demonstrate that these solutions

[00:08:55] work well in challenging environments. Certainly Motorsports does that. It has to be

[00:08:59] sustainable because over the past years, Motorsport had gotten a bit of a bad name because it didn't

[00:09:05] seem sustainable but they certainly have changed out in recent times. And finally,

[00:09:11] Motorsports, if you look at the audience, for instance, that Formula One has for a racing

[00:09:17] weekend, they'll get like 70 million viewers, which is not that far away from what a Super Bowl is

[00:09:21] in that 100 to 120. So what we're trying to do is take those three things and

[00:09:26] pull them together and leverage them as best we can in addition to showcasing what Siemens can do,

[00:09:32] not only in our division but across all the other divisions because it's a pretty big company.

[00:09:38] So I guess to answer your question, I didn't plan it out, but there was always that magnet

[00:09:44] that was drawing me back to racing. So if that's what you really want to do,

[00:09:48] I think when you're going through your career, you got to always look for opportunities to go back

[00:09:51] to what you really like to do. Absolutely. Absolutely. You mentioned the rally sports.

[00:10:00] Everybody who listens to this show is probably familiar with Formula E. Are there other

[00:10:05] Motorsports out there that are moving electric or even hydrogen powered? We'll talk about that

[00:10:09] here in a moment. Oh, absolutely. So there's certainly a Formula E, like you said, people

[00:10:14] are very familiar with that. There's another series that was also started by the same person.

[00:10:19] So Alejandro Agog is the founder of Formula E and he started another series three, four years ago

[00:10:29] called Extreme E. Extreme E races electric SUVs in areas that's off-road series. So it's sort

[00:10:40] of like rally, but instead of one car on the track at a time, you have like, I think it's

[00:10:44] like five or six cars race together. But they go to locations that are challenged by climate change.

[00:10:52] Greenland, the glaciers in Greenland, rainforests, the deserts, whatever it might be.

[00:10:59] And there's no live audience. So the whole goal behind this series is to draw attention

[00:11:08] to areas that are challenged by climate change, to promote sustainability and also develop

[00:11:14] technology that's relevant to that. So they are electric drive. They have hydrogen powered charging

[00:11:22] for these vehicles on their side. So everything is focused around that. And when you go to,

[00:11:26] you can attend these events. There's a limited number of people that can and they'll have talks

[00:11:30] on, they might have talked with a driver like a typical Motorsport event, but they'll also

[00:11:35] do things like have someone come in and for instance, they have a program called

[00:11:40] the Legacy Program. And I attended one of those. And one of the things we did was we planted

[00:11:45] seagrass. It was in Sardinia or one of the races was it? And he said, well, why plant

[00:11:50] seagrass? And it turns out that seagrass is one of the few plants that actually takes carbon

[00:11:56] and puts it back into the ground unlike a tree that takes it in. But when the tree decays,

[00:12:02] it all goes back and anchors of ships, you know, rip all the seagrass up. But there's all sorts of

[00:12:08] things they do like that. And so there's that whole focus on sustainability and the focus on

[00:12:16] the technology that's like electric drive is you have in Formula E. However, they are now looking

[00:12:22] at hydrogen drive and Siemens actually has a project with them to help them in the development

[00:12:27] of that hydrogen drive. So it's a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle that they're looking at.

[00:12:32] They'll probably be testing it towards the end of this season and actually racing it next year side

[00:12:38] by side with the battery electric version of it. And I think this is a great example

[00:12:45] of some of the innovation that racing does because the first thing you think is, okay,

[00:12:50] it's a hydrogen fuel cell. There's the balance of how much does the fuel cell do? How much

[00:12:54] does the battery do? And sort of maximizing that. But then there's never been a racing event before

[00:13:01] where you have to refuel dozens of race cars with hydrogen. The infrastructure of that is safety,

[00:13:11] is number one. So what we learn on that I think will in making sure that you can deliver hydrogen

[00:13:19] safely to these vehicles, it will certainly apply to the infrastructure that you're going to need

[00:13:23] when hydrogen makes its way on the commercial side. But that's a great example. Alejandro Gag

[00:13:31] has also done an electric boat series called E1. I think they had their first race earlier this

[00:13:38] year. They're very futuristic looking. Oh, it looks like it's something from Star Wars, these boats,

[00:13:43] hydrofoil. Tom Brady, the quarterback, Super Bowl quarterback of course, he actually owns one

[00:13:49] of the teams. Oh, wow. And his team won the very first E1 race. And I remember Alejandro,

[00:13:57] I was with him at one of the events and this was before the series started. And I said,

[00:14:03] tell me about Tom Brady. I've never met Tom Brady. And he goes, I have never met anyone so

[00:14:08] competitive. He really wants to win this boat race. And sure enough, he did. But yeah,

[00:14:14] so those are a couple of good examples of how Formula E under the helm of Alejandro Gag and his

[00:14:22] team has started to evolve here to even other series. Excellent. Can you talk about some of the

[00:14:30] EV technologies or autonomous driving technologies that you've seen that have worked their way down

[00:14:35] in your career in this space? Yeah, well, I think one of the things that's surprising,

[00:14:43] maybe even to take a little bit of a step back from that is there's so many things that we take

[00:14:48] for granted now that actually came from racing. Probably the most famous one is in the first

[00:14:54] Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the winner of that race, Ray Haroon's winner. And he had a rear view mirror.

[00:15:02] It was the first time a rear view mirror was ever used in a race. And he won and the reason

[00:15:06] was back then the cars couldn't make it all the way around the track because it's like two and

[00:15:10] a half miles. So they carried a mechanic with them and he figured and mechanic was also the

[00:15:14] rear view mirror. You know, it's like a rear view camera that talks to you. And so he figured out,

[00:15:20] oh, if I don't have a mechanic in my car, your car is going to go faster. But anyway,

[00:15:24] review, review mirror, seat belts, disc brakes, radial tires, these are all great examples of

[00:15:34] things that were invented in racing materials like aluminum, magnesium, carbon fiber,

[00:15:39] all those kinds of things. And I think more recently, as you're saying with respect to electric

[00:15:46] vehicle technology, the Formula E series has done a lot as well. 800-volt charging was first used there

[00:15:55] or the 800-volt battery system was first used there, silicon carbide power inverters. But most

[00:16:01] importantly, there's a lot of rules they have on the ability to change batteries during a season,

[00:16:08] the ability to use energy very, very efficiently. So the amount of research and work that's put into

[00:16:15] those cars in terms of power and energy management has really helped the automotive teams to take

[00:16:25] what they've learned there and apply it in the commercial sector. And I mean, Mercedes, BMW,

[00:16:31] Audi, Jaguar, NIO, Nissan are all examples of teams that have at least at one point worked with

[00:16:40] Formula E. That kind of brings up and maybe I'm going off topic here just a little bit, but that

[00:16:45] brings up something that I was thinking about is what is the strategy? How does that differ

[00:16:52] for racers who are using an electric powertrain versus the traditional gas power or not gas,

[00:16:58] I guess, fuel-powered cars? There's got to be changes that the driver and the team have to make

[00:17:05] so that they can be successful. It can't be a one-to-one.

[00:17:09] You know, it's a great point because an excellent question because ultimately,

[00:17:15] it all comes down to the rules regardless if it's an internal combustion engine or an electric

[00:17:20] car. So, I mean, like if you look over the years first with even with Formula 1,

[00:17:28] like they'll say, okay, this year we're going to have a new tire specification. Oh, okay. So that's

[00:17:34] going to impact the ability to go through the turns more quickly or in 22 they changed the rules

[00:17:40] there and one of the problems they had prior to 22 was that the wings and the rules they had

[00:17:48] on aerodynamics created turbulence behind the car so they couldn't follow very, very closely.

[00:17:56] If you can't follow very, very closely, it's hard to overtake when you go into a turn, for instance,

[00:18:00] well now you can. So, it's sort of changed that. So, there's all the conventional things like

[00:18:08] the tires, what's a lot, what you allowed to do for aerodynamics and all that. In Formula 1,

[00:18:13] all the cars are different. There's 10 teams and 10 teams of each with two drivers and they all design

[00:18:21] their own cars from the ground up completely. There's four or five engine manufacturers that

[00:18:26] provide the engines. In Formula E, it's a little bit different. It's what they call a spec series.

[00:18:32] So, a majority of the components or a significant amount of the components are exactly the same.

[00:18:37] So, the car body, the tires, suspension, all those kinds of things are the same. They can

[00:18:43] certainly adjust those things on their own. However, they do give some freedom in Formula E to do things

[00:18:50] like certain powertrain components you're allowed to work with. The battery packs are all the

[00:18:55] same but all this software for power management and all that is left up to the team.

[00:19:02] So, if you're a driver, there's also rules for the drivers. There's the ability in a Formula E race

[00:19:11] to collect extra power. For a while they had a thing where a certain driver they got the most

[00:19:20] likes during the race would get an extra power boost. They actually got rid of that but

[00:19:24] that was something they had. There are opportunities now to depending on where you are on the track and

[00:19:33] how far into the race you are that you can get additional power that you can use

[00:19:39] in different sections of the track. So, you have to be smart about how you use those.

[00:19:44] It's hard. I mean there's a lot going on. If you ever look at like a steering wheel,

[00:19:47] I mean even for a Formula One car it's very, very complex. A lot of buttons on there that

[00:19:51] do different things. It's impossible sometimes for the driver to do it all in his own. So,

[00:19:56] their simulation is really, really key and depending on the conditions, the temperature of

[00:20:05] the track, the wind, the tires that you're going to use, how often you have to come in for a pit

[00:20:11] stop. All those things have to be taken into account as they develop their race strategy.

[00:20:17] So, yeah. And in fact, AI is even starting to be used a little bit to help develop some of those

[00:20:24] race strategy. At least there's talk that is being done. When it comes to how strategy are created,

[00:20:29] people don't really like to talk about that too much. But it is a complicated puzzle that can change

[00:20:36] as soon as it goes from sunny to being cloudy. I understand when nobody wants to talk about

[00:20:41] strategy but it would be foolish not to take all of that data that you get from the car

[00:20:46] and all that feedback and throw that into the AI just to see if something comes out of it.

[00:20:51] You might learn something, you might not. It might just come back with gibberish.

[00:20:55] But I think what you just said though is interesting. I mean, it's no different than using

[00:20:58] Chad GPT. In fact, when I prepare for my podcast and I have a guest, I'll throw it at Chad

[00:21:08] GPT and say, hey, give me 10 great questions. You look at the 10 and maybe you'll get,

[00:21:13] oh, wow, look at this one question here. It's really good. Then you ask questions about the

[00:21:17] question. Next thing you know, it might guide you in certain directions. That's probably true

[00:21:22] of any type of data I would think. It's a tool that you should try and utilize as best you can.

[00:21:29] Yeah. I personally use Chad GPT to, in Anthropics, Claude. I use that to

[00:21:38] bounce things off of but I don't use, I find that it talks in a way that I don't talk and

[00:21:43] there's not anybody who's been listening to me for the last eight years who's going to believe that

[00:21:49] I would ask a question that way or that I would talk in that way. I use it to bounce things off

[00:21:56] of but then I rewrite everything in my voice to make sure that it's me.

[00:22:03] Sometimes, and I almost do this almost every single time, I'll say generate me a question

[00:22:07] or something or tell me a little something. I said, and then the next one is pretty much

[00:22:11] something like, could you do that again with less hyperbole? Yes.

[00:22:15] Like that, there's just no way. I'm with you. I would never say it like that but

[00:22:20] generally it's helpful sometimes if not most of the time. No, no. I don't want to make it

[00:22:27] sound like I'm poo-pooing the technology. I love it. I love it. If there's an article

[00:22:32] that I'm like, man, I just cannot find the thread in this. I'll throw it into Anthropic

[00:22:35] and I'll say, give me the high points and make them bulleted and then it will do that

[00:22:41] and then I'll go back and I'll reread the article and I'm like, okay, I know I'm getting this

[00:22:46] because you get into habits. We all have pattern recognition. If the data is showing us a new

[00:22:53] pattern, we may not recognize that right away. Whereas AI is going to be like, oh yeah, this

[00:22:57] is obviously the pattern that you should be looking at. I think you sort of hit it, right?

[00:23:03] I mean, and this is definitely true in racing because there's so many variables

[00:23:07] that you can change. I mean, you'd like to think that, oh, maybe I'll change the battery

[00:23:12] management software or maybe I'll change the camber on the tire or maybe I'll tell the driver

[00:23:19] to change his driving technique. I mean, there's so many variables and maybe you're used to,

[00:23:25] like I still race go-karts and even on a go-kart as simple as it is, it's very, very coupled

[00:23:32] in how all the amount of air that's in the tires or the width of the tires or the weight balance

[00:23:39] or whatever it might be. And you sometimes fall into a rut of only changing the one or two things

[00:23:43] that you're familiar with. But if you did have something on something complex like a Formula

[00:23:48] One or a Formula E-Card that said, hey, you might want to think about this or changing

[00:23:53] these two things at the same time as a suggestion tool is probably really, really valuable.

[00:24:00] Of course, how do you get it to analyze these reams and reams of data? It has to somehow learn.

[00:24:09] And I don't know how you teach it. You'd have to figure... I mean, if you've seen on a Formula

[00:24:14] One race, there'll be four or five engineers that sit not on the track itself but right

[00:24:20] on that pit wall. Then there'll be a group inside the garage. Well, first of all, there's

[00:24:26] the crew that does all the tire changes and all that. That's quite a big crew. But then there's

[00:24:30] also another set of maybe, I don't know, half a dozen or so that are analyzing data. And then

[00:24:36] back home at headquarters, there's a room full of 20 or 30 people that are each with their own

[00:24:44] screen analyzing more data. So it's almost like... I don't know what the total of that is, but

[00:24:50] overall, you probably have several dozen, three or four dozen people that are in real time

[00:24:58] taking all this information and saying, oh, you better bring them in two laps sooner. I think

[00:25:04] you'll end up finishing the race five seconds faster, which could make the difference between

[00:25:09] second and fifth plagues or something. Yeah, that's really interesting. And there is...

[00:25:16] Obviously, there are people out there who are data scientists and who do all this AI stuff.

[00:25:21] My oldest daughter, she owns her own social media agency. So they do clients, mostly museums.

[00:25:27] And she'll take the... I'm giving away the family secret here, but she'll take

[00:25:32] audience sentiment from social media and she'll run that through her chat GB2 program that she

[00:25:38] built. And then she has the sentiment for the audience based on this post or over a certain

[00:25:43] period of time. It's really powerful. So you take that and times it by a million, I guess that's

[00:25:50] what you would get for F1 racing or any major motorsport. Well, you know, it's interesting,

[00:25:57] right? Because there's one body of data which is... I don't know how many sensors there's on a

[00:26:03] Formula One car, but there's many, many... I would imagine dozens of sensors doing all

[00:26:08] sorts of things. And then there's a telemetry that's measuring accelerations and you're

[00:26:14] certainly monitoring the motor for its power output and whatever it might be. So there's

[00:26:19] that body data which is numbers that are being collected. But then the driver comes in.

[00:26:25] And one of the things about driving racing and driving a race car is that it's...

[00:26:34] Certainly it's visual, but there's a lot of tactical feeling because they've done experiments

[00:26:39] where they would put novocaine or they would numb the backside of the driver, the part that's in

[00:26:43] contact with the seat. And they found that when they do that, the driver can't feel if the car's

[00:26:51] on the edge of adhesion. In other words, if you throw yourself into a turn too fast,

[00:26:56] you'll spin out. If you throw yourself into the turn too slowly or not fast enough, you don't win.

[00:27:03] So you're always on the edge of spinning out. You're always on the edge of spinning out.

[00:27:07] And how you feel that is you're starting to spin out and the car's starting to slip.

[00:27:14] Maybe it can slip just a little bit more. But then other times, you're used to how well

[00:27:20] this car could take a turn, but now when you start to turn, it doesn't want to turn. Or

[00:27:24] the back end is slipping out too much and the driver will come back and they'll say to the crew,

[00:27:29] this is additional information. They'll say it's a little loose, which means the back,

[00:27:34] the tail is slipping out or it's understeering. I want it to turn and it doesn't want to turn.

[00:27:38] But it only does this on turn three, doesn't do it on turn four, on and on and on. And

[00:27:46] I guess you got to record that and give that to the AI system as well, right?

[00:27:51] Or have it do some voice recognition. There's that human element, I guess, right? That you

[00:27:58] got to incorporate there somehow that, like I say, it's not a big stream of data that's coming in.

[00:28:05] It's another source that has to be incorporated. But over time, there's no reason

[00:28:09] that system couldn't analyze that as well and look for correlations between the different pieces.

[00:28:14] Absolutely. I'm sure this is getting really nerdy, but I'm sure they can get down with

[00:28:19] like an Apple Watch or some other type of measurement, like how well the driver slept

[00:28:23] versus how well they slept on this race. And they can put all that information in there.

[00:28:27] I'm sure what they had for breakfast, whether or not they went to the bathroom in the morning.

[00:28:32] I'm sure all of this stuff, how much water intake could be put in and they could spit out

[00:28:38] how the car should be set up to maximize performance for that driver.

[00:28:43] It's endless, right? Oh, I'm in a bad mood today because...

[00:28:47] Oh, good one. Yeah. That's a good one.

[00:28:50] There's the emotional, I suppose that could... Yeah, I mean, well, maybe somebody's listening,

[00:28:56] they're going to take all this and try to figure out how to pull out or maybe it's already been

[00:29:00] done. Who knows? But simulation does play a really big part. I think in Formula One,

[00:29:06] it's... I know over the years, I've spent a lot of time in different engineering

[00:29:11] organizations and seeing the cars being assembled and all that. But one of the

[00:29:15] things I've never seen and few employees actually get to see it is the simulator that the drivers use.

[00:29:22] And because when they show up at the track, because there's again this Formula One with

[00:29:27] limited track time, and this applies to all the different race series,

[00:29:32] they've spent so much time in the simulator because they have to do that to take advantage

[00:29:38] of the limited testing time that they have, that real physical,

[00:29:41] in a vehicle testing time. And most of the time when they show up, that car is really,

[00:29:46] really close. That car driver closer to the maximum performance you're going to get,

[00:29:51] which is way unlike if you want to call it the old days when they didn't have those

[00:29:54] simulations and that type of thing. So yeah. And I suppose AI could probably even help with

[00:30:03] trying to improve those simulations and knowing what stimulus that

[00:30:07] you might want to put in there to help improve a driver more quickly and get to the

[00:30:11] optimum performance with less time on the simulator. For sure. Yeah, that's really interesting. I did

[00:30:18] not have any of that in my question so it was good. Let's move a little bit to

[00:30:25] Thomas' driving. So you talked about what you say was 1911 the first F1 race?

[00:30:31] Oh yeah, 1911 was actually the first Indianapolis 500. I think the first F1 race was probably in

[00:30:40] the 50s, late 40s, early 50s, but around in there sometime. But 1911 was when the

[00:30:45] rearview mirror at the Indianapolis 500, yes. Got it. Okay. So if we're taking that as our

[00:30:51] time frame, like our start point, at that point in time everything was pretty much on the

[00:30:57] driver, whether shifting gears, the power to the tires is exactly what it was going to be.

[00:31:05] There was nothing internally in the car that was going to change power to the tires.

[00:31:10] But over time we've built in things to help the driver eliminate fatigue but also have better

[00:31:16] control of the car at higher speeds and all that stuff. And I consider that a form of

[00:31:21] autonomous driving. But as it is commercially, how do you think autonomous driving is going to be

[00:31:28] folded into motorsports? It doesn't really matter if it's electric vehicles or not because

[00:31:35] part of the appeal is the talent that these people have that are driving these vehicles.

[00:31:43] Yeah. Well, I think you've raised two interesting points.

[00:31:47] I'll take the first one is this whole idea of certainly there's fully autonomous and

[00:31:54] it's gotten to that point now where there are some racing series that are starting to do that.

[00:32:01] But over time, right, there's things like traction control and ABS and a lot of these

[00:32:10] things that we take for granted now came into racing and sometimes were taken out

[00:32:15] because it started to level the playing field a little bit too much.

[00:32:22] And in some ways you could say ABS or anti-lock braking is a form of a,

[00:32:27] it's certainly a technology assist. And I mean, and you can even take autonomous car technology

[00:32:33] and say, hey, I'm going to put it in the car but it's not going to do anything unless you get

[00:32:37] in trouble. The technology is the same but it's not fully autonomous driving where say,

[00:32:42] hey, take me from A to B or whatever it might be. But how does this fit in full autonomy?

[00:32:51] How does that fit into racing? And we've talked a lot about technology and racing,

[00:32:56] but I think we have to remember racing is a form of entertainment. It's a marketing business.

[00:33:01] And there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are spent on race series like

[00:33:07] Formula 1 and many, many tens of millions in Formula E and IndyCar and all that.

[00:33:15] And probably overall even getting into the hundreds of millions and sponsorship costs

[00:33:19] in the areas that if you want to get your name on the side of the car, even in IndyCar or

[00:33:26] NASCAR and those, you're into the tens of millions of dollars. But it is a marketing business

[00:33:31] that has to be entertaining. So whatever is they're going to do, they're going to do it to draw in those

[00:33:38] 70 million viewers every weekend that want to watch Formula 1. And Formula 1 has gone in the past,

[00:33:48] I think it's two or three years maybe closer to four, is they created a series called Drive

[00:33:53] to Survive. I don't know if you ever watched Drive to Survive as a Netflix series?

[00:33:57] I have not, but just a really quick side note. My father-in-law, I took my father-in-law to lunch

[00:34:02] and he was telling me about it. And the moment I got back, I got the email for you about coming

[00:34:10] on the show. Did you watch, did you, if you're taking a look at all? I have not yet. I don't

[00:34:15] watch a lot of TV, not because I don't want to, just the time wise, but yeah, it is something

[00:34:21] that is on my list of things to look at. Well, so you could think of it as a reality series about

[00:34:28] what goes on behind the scenes in Formula 1. And they have the rights to pretty much film

[00:34:34] wherever they want. And there's 10 teams, it's very competitive, there's a lot of crazy

[00:34:39] personalities and all sorts of things that go on. And it's propelled, it's one of the top

[00:34:46] series on Netflix and it's propelled Formula 1 way beyond they've ever, ever been. And they finally

[00:34:52] got to the point where they're starting to sell out races. They never used to do that. And now they

[00:34:57] sell out, you know, if not the whole every single race, but many, many in a year there,

[00:35:03] it's really helped them a lot in growing the series in the United States. So now there's

[00:35:09] a race in Austin, has been there for a while, Miami. They had one in Las Vegas last year. So

[00:35:20] and if you look at an episode, and I've done this a couple of times, I said, well, what percent

[00:35:26] of the time in 45 minutes are they actually showing a race car on the track? I think,

[00:35:33] and you can't quote me on this 100%, but it's usually a third or less, I would think.

[00:35:38] Because most of it is the drivers walking around in the paddock as they call it or the team

[00:35:43] principals talking about other team principals or problems they're having with the FIA or

[00:35:48] whatever, whatever it might be. And that kind of drama is what draws people in. So now

[00:35:55] you're going to have an autonomous race car and the risk of the human, you know, this in there or

[00:36:04] the drama of the human driver is gone. Well, people really want to watch a bunch of computers

[00:36:11] driving around a racetrack, right? I think there's a place for this, but it's a little bit

[00:36:20] different. It's not going to ever compete with Formula One or Indy car, NASCAR, anything

[00:36:24] like that. But from a technology development standpoint, it's the same thing, right? Of

[00:36:32] a very challenging environment, high speed, unpredictable road or track conditions,

[00:36:41] the ability to have the bandwidth of being able to react and have the level of

[00:36:50] it's the level of strategy that you need to actually race, which is probably a level above

[00:36:58] even what an autonomous car has to do when it's driving. So for its autonomous car,

[00:37:03] it has to be careful of, you know, is a child going to run out in front of it or, you know,

[00:37:08] what's, oh, this car, how am I going to pass this car? I got to get around it. What are the

[00:37:14] rules of the street, the speed limits? It has to be very, very complex. So you have all that in

[00:37:21] racing as well. But if you're, when you're racing, you're following someone and your goal is to pass

[00:37:28] them, but they're really, really good. And it's really hard to pass them, but you watch them

[00:37:33] through the nine turns and you say, oh, on turn eight, they're going a little bit wide.

[00:37:38] I'm going to take them on the inside and then get ready to pass them. And as you're starting to pass,

[00:37:44] you're watching, can I wait a little bit longer to put my brakes on so I can get by? So there's

[00:37:51] a strategy that is more than just the moment, shall we say, that you have to add to the

[00:37:58] capability of whatever the system, the planning system that's driving it. But again,

[00:38:04] it's, and this really goes back to why we work with the Formula One teams when we were developing

[00:38:11] our composite software. One of the things in racing is, is, hey, there's a race in six months

[00:38:17] or two weeks or whatever it is. What's the best we can do with what we've got between now and then?

[00:38:24] And so you're forced to work, I mean, you might work around the clock and all that, but

[00:38:30] your development rate is really, really fast. And you know what's important to consider and

[00:38:35] not consider. And since you have to do it at such a rapid development rate,

[00:38:40] having a series that's autonomous, and there's a couple, there's the India autonomous challenge

[00:38:45] that's been around here for a couple of years. They've been at CES. And there's a new racing

[00:38:50] league called A2RL that's in Abu Dhabi. It's funded by the Emirates. And they've,

[00:38:57] I think they've got like seven, eight teams that are going to be competing. And they've made a commitment

[00:39:04] to these teams, I think for several years now with the end goal being not to compete against

[00:39:10] Formula One, but to get some of the brightest minds working on the challenges of driving very,

[00:39:17] very quickly with an autonomous driver. And the end goal for them is to develop technology

[00:39:25] that they can utilize in the commercial sector. So yeah, I think it's the traditional role that

[00:39:32] racing has always had except that I don't think you're going to have 350,000 screaming fans watching

[00:39:39] them like you do at the Indianapolis 500. I don't think that's going to happen.

[00:39:43] Yeah. So when I was at CES, I saw the cars laid out on the show floor for the autonomous

[00:39:50] driving series. And when I saw this, I was like, Oh, this is this is like that. Remember the BattleBots

[00:39:56] TV show? Yes. I was like, this is this is that without the carnage, right? But this is to allow

[00:40:03] young engineers who whether they're software or hardware develop something that could be used

[00:40:09] somewhere else in racing. But I also had another thought when I was researching this is

[00:40:14] when you have young drivers coming up, this might be a good opportunity for them to race

[00:40:18] with other cars on the track without the risk. I mean, you always have the driver's life at risk,

[00:40:26] but without really risking a whole lot of other people because they're not going slow. They're

[00:40:32] going pretty darn fast. And so having something that would actually give them a challenge as

[00:40:37] they're coming up through the ranks to learn how to do this. And I know you can do some of

[00:40:41] this in a simulation, but other things, sometimes you just got to get out there and

[00:40:45] actually do the work. When I was a kid, we used to go to stock car races in the community I

[00:40:49] grew up in and they all like lined up to race to their cars to start to actually start.

[00:40:56] Oh, you get all pumped up, right? Yeah, there's so much.

[00:40:58] The adrenaline is flowing.

[00:40:59] Yeah, there's so many cool things and autonomous driving kind of takes

[00:41:04] a little bit of that out of that element out. And maybe it could still be interesting. It

[00:41:09] could still be a Netflix series on how people are developing all this, but I don't think it can

[00:41:15] take the place of an actual driver. Well, you know, you got to have the Netflix series.

[00:41:22] Everyone, I mean, in fact, NASCAR has one now golf has 110 as they all picked up on the drive to

[00:41:27] survive. But one of the things you mentioned, I think is really, really interesting is the

[00:41:32] use of this in training. So one thing you could do is you could have an autonomous car

[00:41:38] out there and you could tell a new driver, follow it and it'll teach you the proper line

[00:41:42] around the track. That's good. But another way would be to have a fully autonomous race car,

[00:41:50] but that a human could actually sit in and you could dial it into full autonomy.

[00:41:55] Hey, take me for a ride. And then you'd say, okay, I think I'm ready. And maybe you put it

[00:42:01] on eight or six or eventually put it on zero. But and it would tell you, hey,

[00:42:07] you're not ready for level five yet. You better put it back on seven here. And then

[00:42:11] of and your goal would be to have less and less assistance, right? And in some ways that's exactly

[00:42:16] how you know autonomy could work as someone referred to it as like a guardian angel, right?

[00:42:21] That only kicks in when you're about to have an accident. The thing is when you're racing,

[00:42:26] you're about to have an accident every second that you're out there or also not going

[00:42:29] as fast as you can. So it's probably a great way to teach someone how to be on the edge

[00:42:37] and gradually approach that skill that it takes with the least chance of crashing.

[00:42:42] I had Mario Andretti on my podcast, the Future Car Podcast. And I asked him about learning to race

[00:42:49] at the Indianapolis 500 because that's an oval and you're going at 240 miles an hour on the

[00:42:54] straightaway. And they come within inches of the wall. And I said, God, we're really ever

[00:43:01] scared because it's my job. He said, but I will tell you this, he said there's two kinds

[00:43:06] of people at the Indianapolis 500. He said those that have crashed into the wall and those that

[00:43:13] are going to crash into the wall, otherwise they don't win and they're going to disappear.

[00:43:18] So yeah, so figuring out how to get to that point where you know to go just enough,

[00:43:24] I think would be an excellent application for a time. Yeah, that's a good, that's a better

[00:43:30] example for training and all that other stuff that that's basically what they do on video

[00:43:36] games, right? When you're first learning to drive, say not Grand Theft Auto,

[00:43:43] the one forza motorsports, for instance, until you figured out how to how those cars react, you

[00:43:51] you change the difficulty settings and the computer does a lot of it for you. And then

[00:43:55] eventually when you become better, you turn that stuff on. Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:00] You mean, and that's a good point, right? And it's almost like taking that and putting it into the

[00:44:06] real world. Because usually what happens when you go in the real world, you have to approach it at

[00:44:12] a much slower pace because you're you can get hurt if you're if you're not careful.

[00:44:18] Yeah, yeah, I'm a firefighter in real life and our motto in at least on my shift is practice

[00:44:26] practice until you can't get it wrong. Well, yeah, I mean, and I guess in firefighting,

[00:44:31] you got to make split second decisions, right? When you're going into a burning building and

[00:44:36] figuring out to keep going in or not or whatever. I suppose you could have an AI system saying,

[00:44:42] hey, back off, you don't want to go in there. Well, that's that's an interesting

[00:44:46] thing that you say that because we're getting less and less fires. So we're and we're getting

[00:44:51] less and less opportunities to operate in fire. So there's these virtual reality

[00:44:58] simulation type things that are coming up, they're very expensive, like more than $25,000,

[00:45:04] where you feel like you're actually pulling the hose and then you get the feedback that

[00:45:07] you would get for water, but you don't actually feel the heat. And there guys I've been doing

[00:45:12] this since 1993. There are folks who have been in the department for 10 years who have seen

[00:45:21] a handful of big fires. And it's just because we don't get them enough for them to get that

[00:45:28] experience of what it's like. We know what it's like when we have a contents fire up in the bedroom,

[00:45:33] but they don't know what it's like to have an actual like rip in house fire that is

[00:45:38] driving you to the ground and you're still going in. They don't have that experience. And

[00:45:42] they're probably not going to because, you know, things are safer and that's a good thing.

[00:45:47] But if they ever do, they don't have that experience to draw from. And maybe they'll make the right

[00:45:55] decision and hopefully they make the right decision, but maybe they make the wrong decision

[00:45:58] because they don't have that within their database of things to pull from for experiences.

[00:46:04] Well, if we go back to Formula One and simulation really any form of racing,

[00:46:08] it's exactly that. If you limit the amount of time you can actually test on a physical

[00:46:13] track to say level the playing field, we're going to get that experience.

[00:46:17] Sure.

[00:46:19] And by working in a simulator and it's probably easier to simulate a race car on a racetrack

[00:46:26] than it would be a firefighter in a building. But you know, like in a racing simulator,

[00:46:32] the haptic feedback or the ability to fill forces is really, really, really important.

[00:46:38] And I suppose, and if you're going to do this for firefighting, like you said,

[00:46:43] I bet you an experienced firefighter takes the heat that they feel on the left side of

[00:46:48] the face is greater than the right side. Or I don't know. I mean,

[00:46:52] you have to... It's an interesting simulation, probably very, very complex even compared to

[00:46:57] a racing one, I would think in some ways at least.

[00:47:00] For sure. And there are certain things that how thick and black the smoke is,

[00:47:05] what their visibility is, the heat, where the heat's coming from. Is it driving us to the ground?

[00:47:11] If we spray some water up into the ceiling, is that water coming back down? Because if it's not,

[00:47:15] it's over 212 degrees above us and it's just turning into steam. And then we need to start

[00:47:21] making decisions on whether we need to start backing out or is it okay to still operate in

[00:47:25] here? So is AI going to help you, you think? Do you think it can?

[00:47:30] You know what? I think, yes. I think in the realm of AI helping us do our day-to-day jobs,

[00:47:38] no. But taking the data, especially if as our airpacks and everything else gets more sensors,

[00:47:45] I think taking that and uploading it and with the factors that everybody remembers from the fire,

[00:47:50] I think we could eventually start building useful models to replicate real world fires in those

[00:47:57] situations. And then you're still not going to get the heat. No matter if you're in a training fire,

[00:48:03] you're never going to get the heat that you're going to get in a real fire. So

[00:48:08] you just have to experience that. Nobody's going to put you in a building that could

[00:48:12] potentially kill you for training. But yeah, I think somebody would have to do a lot of

[00:48:21] testing. Like UL does a lot of firefighting testing. Somebody would just have to figure

[00:48:26] out where to put the sensors and build those models. And I think it will eventually help.

[00:48:32] Yeah, it's better to die in a video game and get your life back.

[00:48:37] Yeah, we don't want to make those mistakes in real life for sure.

[00:48:42] All right, so we got off topic just a little bit. When you see what's going on with F1

[00:48:49] and what's going on with motorsports in general, and you look five, 10 years into

[00:48:54] the future, what are you looking forward to there? Well, in terms of the sport itself or in terms of

[00:49:01] what it how it can benefit, how it can benefit the automotive industry. It's really you choose.

[00:49:09] What do you what do you look at and you're like, man, I really am into this? Well, you know,

[00:49:15] there's in the end, if you're truly a racer and you like racing, you're just looking for

[00:49:21] you always look forward to having better and better competition, because that's that's the exciting part

[00:49:27] of it. So there's there's certainly going there's always going to be that from a technology standpoint.

[00:49:33] I think seeing what happens to things like being able to take advantage of electric drive

[00:49:40] or hydrogen, these types of things, I think is really, really interesting. I think the whole

[00:49:46] idea of how you utilize data so that you can during the race or the next race,

[00:49:54] you can figure out how to configure the car or the driver better. I think that's really a lot

[00:50:00] of the things that we've been talking about. I think that's something new that's a little bit

[00:50:05] untouched that is is you know, they're in racing. It seems like there's these

[00:50:10] and let's take Red Bull. Red Bull is the champion in Formula One and they're dominating. They've got a

[00:50:17] designer called Adrian Newey, and he's an expert in designing shapes that are very that flow well

[00:50:25] or dynamically very, very efficient. And he designs with a pencil and paper on a drawing board.

[00:50:32] That's how he designs. But it's in his head. You know, it's in his head and he's

[00:50:37] figuring it there. So there's these personalities and these people that are just known,

[00:50:43] certainly the drivers, but even an engineer like him.

[00:50:50] How do you, is there a way to take all this data and this information and set the car up better,

[00:50:58] make the design better, tweak it better? I think it was just like we were now just talking

[00:51:02] about firefighters. It's the same thing. And I think that's the challenge in many industries.

[00:51:07] Even in riding, right? In that Chad GPT or other applications help you do. So I think that's one

[00:51:13] of the things that's most exciting. I think that different forms of racing is another one.

[00:51:21] Alejandro Agoghi went from Formula E to Extreme E in these. I think that was a big step with

[00:51:29] Extreme E and Extreme H, the hydrogen series, because there's no audience. It's one of the

[00:51:33] first ones to not have an audience. So it's truly an online series where you can interact with it

[00:51:45] more actively, more connected. There's also another company that we're working with

[00:51:51] that we're helping with remote racing called Avikar. And the idea behind Avikar

[00:51:59] is it's a cross between the real world and I guess you could say eSports, but you will be able to

[00:52:06] control real cars. They're half-scale, so they're half-sized, but they're very high speed cars

[00:52:12] remotely from hundreds or maybe thousands of miles away. And the idea is to have a competition

[00:52:20] where you qualify like American Idol or something like that, right? You could have a

[00:52:26] 13-year-old eSports person competing against a Formula E driver or something like that.

[00:52:33] But this whole idea of getting connected to what it feels like to be in the car in real time,

[00:52:40] or I know the A2RL was saying that they envision, this is the Autonomous Racing League,

[00:52:47] they envision things like being able to, during a race, you could become like a ghost car

[00:52:55] for instance, and you would actually race against the autonomous cars. Only you would see yourself

[00:53:00] racing, but you could actually be in the race. There could be hundreds or thousands or tens of

[00:53:05] thousands of races occurring that are completely different. So the whole, I guess the melding of

[00:53:12] physical racing with augmented reality, remote reality, these types of things opens up all

[00:53:19] sorts of possibilities. And also I think we race on race tracks, but the E1 series is racing on water,

[00:53:29] there's drone racing now, some with humans in it, some talk of doing it autonomously.

[00:53:35] What if you combined all those together? I mean, there's all, I think combining,

[00:53:43] it just like Extremee did by removing the audience, removing the spectators and doing it all as an online

[00:53:53] racing series. That I guess was really the first step. Remote reality with avicars is another step

[00:54:00] and then engaging in the actual race like A2RL's talking about, racing against autonomous cars.

[00:54:08] I mean, I guess it's like a new generation of racing that is probably opening up here.

[00:54:15] I don't know where it's going to go in the coming years, but a lot of different possibilities,

[00:54:19] a lot of different combinations. Yeah, that's really interesting. And what it sounds like to me,

[00:54:25] correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like they're just building a community of engaged fans and

[00:54:30] then they're giving the fans that ability to not just sit and watch, but actually to participate on

[00:54:38] some level. That actually makes me like more excited about racing than before we started

[00:54:46] this interview. People want to have that experience who are never going to sit in a race car.

[00:54:51] People want to know what goes behind the scenes who are never going to work on a team.

[00:54:55] It's not a real housewives type of fascination, but it is like having that insight information

[00:55:07] and feeling like you're a part of that moment. I think that's important for people and it's

[00:55:12] important to keep people engaged. I know you do the Future of Car podcast and what else are you

[00:55:18] up to? Well, certainly as part of work a lot of these projects with the different racing teams

[00:55:26] and like the Extremee project with Hydrogen for instance. A big part, at least from the work

[00:55:33] standpoint is looking at sustainability and trying to make sustainability part of engineering,

[00:55:39] but always remembering that you got to make the car go fast, but you got to do it in a

[00:55:43] sustainable way. I think one of the other interesting things from that is, and part of

[00:55:48] that is Siemens because Siemens we're in the digital industry software group which is engineering

[00:55:52] software, but then as part of our division digital industries they also make controllers for

[00:55:58] factory equipment and then there's smart infrastructure which is another division and

[00:56:01] these are all like 70,000 people or so like 350 and all the Siemens, but the smart

[00:56:06] infrastructure group works with us with the racing teams because they all want to make

[00:56:12] their buildings more sustainable, EV charging, micro grids, on-site energy storage, hydrogen or

[00:56:19] whatever it might be and getting all that to make their operations more sustainable. So we're doing

[00:56:24] a lot of work in that and I think sometimes in big companies like Siemens you have all these

[00:56:29] divisions they tend to work within themselves but if you can combine them and get people

[00:56:33] to work together you can come up with some unique things because everybody thinks

[00:56:36] there are problems in different ways so there's certainly all of that. Excellent. Where

[00:56:41] would people go if they want to learn more about what Siemens is doing or what you're doing?

[00:56:46] Well certainly the Future Car podcast definitely check that out. We interview a lot of

[00:56:53] race drivers, race engineers, that type of thing. A lot of people in the autonomous and

[00:56:58] electric car business as well. We did a series a year and a half ago on women driving the

[00:57:03] future so for almost a full year we interviewed nothing but women that were in transportation

[00:57:08] and racing and things like that. So you can certainly find out there. Siemens is a fascinating

[00:57:13] company I think. They do everything from MRI machines to power generation equipment like we

[00:57:21] were talking about controllers for robots and factories, things like that. So Siemens.com

[00:57:29] check that out. We're in the digital industry software group so one of the big things we

[00:57:34] do is create these things called digital twins which is really about simulating something but not

[00:57:38] just visually but also all the physics that's behind it. And in fact that's exactly what we used on that

[00:57:45] project for the World Rally Cup for safety. One of the key things on that was to understand

[00:57:54] the physics behind what LiDAR or radar could do and how it was impacted by rain or dirt or dust

[00:58:00] in the air. So we were able to simulate a lot of those things. Yeah, so definitely check those out.

[00:58:06] Absolutely and I'll put all the links in the show notes as well so people if they can't remember

[00:58:12] where exactly to go just go to the show notes. Well Ed thank you so much for coming on and I'm

[00:58:17] going to be honest I just threw my notes out immediately. The first two questions were planned

[00:58:22] after that I just threw them out. I did the same with mine too so perfect match.

[00:58:28] It was a that means we had a good conversation so thank you so much for coming on and being generous

[00:58:32] with your time. Yeah, thank you Bo to really appreciate it and had a great time. Thanks.

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[00:59:30] to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Hi I'm Cara Berry host of everyone's business

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[01:00:40] all right I want to thank Ed for being so gracious with his time again this was a fun

[01:00:50] conversation I hope you all enjoyed it I have listened to Ed's podcast the future car podcast

[01:00:57] and it's really good I think folks who listen to this podcast would also get a lot of value out

[01:01:03] of his podcast so I'll put a link to that in the show notes and I'll also put a link to

[01:01:08] Siemens Digital in the show notes as well so you can see everything that they're working on and

[01:01:13] honestly it's a lot I could list all of the things that they're doing but it's all over the place

[01:01:18] Ed kind of mentioned some of the things that Siemens does but it's a lot especially in the

[01:01:23] motorsports realm so you can just go check that out on your own okie doke that is it for me

[01:01:30] today if you want to email me it's bodi b-o-d-i-e at 918digital.com you can also find me on x

[01:01:38] at 918 digital I hope you all enjoyed the podcast I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and I

[01:01:45] will talk to you on Tuesday

[01:02:01] you

[01:02:07] tired of ads barging into your favorite news podcasts good news ad-free listening is available on amazon

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