Jason Marks and Forrest North of Telo Trucks

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[00:01:18] Hello everyone and welcome to Kilowatt, a podcast about electric vehicles, renewable

[00:01:49] energy and autonomous driving or I guess autonomous driving and much, much more.

[00:01:54] My name is Bodhi and I am your host and on today's episode we're going to talk

[00:01:57] about electric vehicles.

[00:01:59] I had the very good fortune to interview Jason Marks and Forrest North who are

[00:02:04] two of the three co-founders of Telo Trucks.

[00:02:08] Now if you don't know what Telo Trucks is, stop this, stop what you're doing.

[00:02:13] Go to telotrucks.com and check out their really cool looking EV pickup truck.

[00:02:19] It is roughly the size of a two-door Mini Cooper.

[00:02:22] Actually it's exactly the same length as a two-door Mini Cooper which is 152 inches

[00:02:29] and it seats five people.

[00:02:30] This is a really neat truck.

[00:02:33] Before we get to the interview, this morning Joseph sent me an email saying that

[00:02:38] Telo Trucks just closed a five plus million dollar round and when I was talking

[00:02:43] to the fellows in the interview they had closed a six million dollar round

[00:02:49] recently as well.

[00:02:50] So big congratulations to the Telo team.

[00:02:54] Alright enough of the small talk.

[00:02:55] Let's welcome Forrest and Jason to the show.

[00:02:58] Thanks for having us.

[00:02:59] Thanks for having us.

[00:03:00] I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

[00:03:04] There's a lot that you're doing that I find very interesting.

[00:03:07] I like the products that are just kind of like weird one-offs that we don't typically

[00:03:14] see and I think that's what you're doing at Telo.

[00:03:17] But before we get into that, I just wanted to introduce yourself and just kind of

[00:03:21] give us a little bit about your background and we'll start with Forrest on this.

[00:03:25] Sure.

[00:03:26] Hi, I'm Forrest North.

[00:03:27] I've been working on EVs for 20 years.

[00:03:29] I was early at Tesla and started an electric motorcycle company, sold an electric

[00:03:35] charging station finding app and started Telo with Jason here.

[00:03:39] Excellent.

[00:03:40] And how about you, Jason?

[00:03:41] Yeah, so I'm Jason.

[00:03:43] I'm the CEO of Telo Trucks.

[00:03:44] I've been working on vehicle safety now for about 12 years.

[00:03:50] Started in the semiconductor space working on radar and lidar chips.

[00:03:53] Ended up working on software and hardware systems that do things like driver

[00:03:58] assistance and lane keeping assistance for some of the electric pickup trucks that

[00:04:01] are on the road today.

[00:04:04] Excellent.

[00:04:05] And either one of you can go on this one because I'm sure you probably have a

[00:04:09] similar answer, but what inspired you to enter the electric truck market?

[00:04:13] Like how did you go from building an apps like Plugshare, which is what you

[00:04:19] that was your app, right?

[00:04:20] Yeah, correct.

[00:04:22] So you built Plugshare.

[00:04:23] Jason, you worked with big OEMs on safety features.

[00:04:28] What inspired you to move on and form your own company and build electric trucks?

[00:04:32] Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of a genesis here.

[00:04:36] I drive a pickup truck, a Toyota Tacoma in downtown San Francisco, largely

[00:04:42] because I have a 150 pound dog that I take to the beach fairly frequently.

[00:04:46] And he's not going in the back of a sedan, that's for sure, after he gets

[00:04:49] covered in water and sand.

[00:04:51] So having a truck is incredible.

[00:04:54] You know, you can take all your friends mountain biking, go up to the hills and

[00:04:57] go snowboarding, take your dog to the beach and you're everyone's best friend

[00:05:00] on moving day. But it's impossible to actually navigate the downtown cities.

[00:05:04] So I had gone on a trip to Japan, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, and

[00:05:09] I saw the K trucks they had in Japan, the small Japanese trucks they had that

[00:05:13] fit into a very small form factor for tax reasons.

[00:05:15] And I thought, that's ingenious.

[00:05:17] Why are we not doing something like that in the U.S.?

[00:05:21] And when we dug into some of the reasons why we can't do that in the U.S., we

[00:05:24] thought, huh, now's a really unique time in like the technological landscape and

[00:05:28] history to actually be able to address these main reasons that we can't have

[00:05:32] K trucks in the U.S.

[00:05:33] And so it kind of spawned this endeavor.

[00:05:36] We went down.

[00:05:38] Was the idea to always build a mini truck?

[00:05:41] I mean, what was the original concept?

[00:05:43] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:05:44] We came together, Jason wanted to build an electric motorcycle.

[00:05:47] I had built an electric motorcycle before, so a lot of people who are

[00:05:51] starting off building electric motorcycles come and find me.

[00:05:54] We decided to work together and we built a really cool motorcycle behind us

[00:05:58] here, which your listeners can't see.

[00:06:01] But that was our first prototype.

[00:06:04] It was basically like kind of cafe motorcycle that go like 100 miles and

[00:06:08] could do a little over 100 miles an hour, you know, kind of like not a

[00:06:12] sport bike. And it kind of felt like I was hitting my head against the

[00:06:16] same wall when I'd started after I'd started electric motorcycle before.

[00:06:21] But in general, we both have come together because we want to electrify

[00:06:25] the world. And so we're always looking for like what is the next way

[00:06:29] that we can do that.

[00:06:31] So as we were doing the motorcycle, we kind of realized that market's not

[00:06:34] very big. We're not going to displace a lot of carbon and everyone

[00:06:38] we showed our presentation to.

[00:06:40] We had this kind of roadmap of doing a motorcycle and then a small car

[00:06:43] and then a mini truck.

[00:06:44] Everyone was like, oh, I want the mini truck right now.

[00:06:46] Can you just make that?

[00:06:49] And so we ended up pivoting.

[00:06:50] Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about kind of forced meeting each

[00:06:54] other, we met in 2018.

[00:06:56] We were both separately kind of trying to solve the problem of city

[00:06:59] mobility and the thesis that we both had was micro mobility or small

[00:07:02] two wheel transport would be the best way to solve that challenge and

[00:07:06] solve carbon emissions at the same time.

[00:07:08] But what we kind of stumbled upon almost through our own coalition was

[00:07:12] like, there's this big opportunity to be had around fixing the biggest

[00:07:15] contributor to carbon emissions in the passenger vehicle space.

[00:07:20] And that was really around trucks.

[00:07:22] And that's when we pivoted and went down that route.

[00:07:25] Do you want to talk a little bit about the mini truck that you

[00:07:29] actually are designing and creating right now?

[00:07:31] Because it's pretty unique.

[00:07:33] It's as just as long as or maybe a little shorter than a two door

[00:07:38] mini. Is that right?

[00:07:40] Yes. Yeah, same way.

[00:07:41] Same distance as a two door Mini Cooper, 152 inches long.

[00:07:45] It's also our preorder deposit amount.

[00:07:46] That's why it's exactly that number.

[00:07:49] But yeah, we built a crew cab pickup truck and we wanted to really be an

[00:07:54] uncompromising crew cab pickup truck.

[00:07:56] So something that had the capability to carry as much as maybe a F 150 or a

[00:08:00] Toyota Tacoma to fit five people, to have a five foot bed that can

[00:08:04] transform into an eight foot bed.

[00:08:05] So uncompromising in every single way you would want to use a utility

[00:08:08] truck, but be extremely space efficient in a way that could actually navigate

[00:08:12] the city. And we kind of chose the Mini Cooper as a great benchmark for what

[00:08:16] really constitutes a small vehicle and a small footprint.

[00:08:19] And it was our engineering effort that let us package that vehicle

[00:08:22] together. The powertrain, the battery, the safety, the occupants, all

[00:08:27] that had to get packaged into that.

[00:08:28] And that was the real engineering challenge we had.

[00:08:31] And so in order for you to get eight feet, you got to you got to

[00:08:35] fold the back seats down, right?

[00:08:37] And then is there any expansion that you can do with the tailgate?

[00:08:40] Like you get a little flip up.

[00:08:43] Because from what I can see, you guys can hold full sheets of plywood in this.

[00:08:47] Yes. And you could without putting the mid gate down, you could put the

[00:08:51] tailgate down. We haven't designed any special tailgate.

[00:08:55] Like there's a lot of tailgate accessories, accessories out there,

[00:08:59] little features that are new, but we haven't focused on that yet.

[00:09:02] OK, OK. How far along are you in this process?

[00:09:05] Well, we have one driveable prototype that you again, your listeners can't

[00:09:08] see, but you can see in.

[00:09:10] Your vision as well as the.

[00:09:13] Exterior model of the vehicle we just raise a nearly six million dollar

[00:09:17] round and that the intention of that round was to build two fully

[00:09:22] functional press ready vehicles to be driving around the city streets

[00:09:26] to showcase exactly what our vehicle is capable of doing.

[00:09:29] Who's your target audience?

[00:09:31] Who's your who are your customers for this vehicle?

[00:09:33] Yeah, it was a so we launched in June of last year really thinking that this

[00:09:37] would be a people like us, people that were fairly young, you know,

[00:09:41] between 20 and 50 that would that live in downtown cities that go out

[00:09:47] and explore the world.

[00:09:49] But they have a really big space constraint.

[00:09:50] So and they want to be able to go explore the world in many ways.

[00:09:54] So urban adventure, we called them and we were blown away by the

[00:09:57] reception we got after our launch.

[00:09:59] We're nearly at 3000 paid pre orders.

[00:10:01] And it's kind of that classification of people that you might expect.

[00:10:04] It's Los Angeles, New York, San Jose, San Francisco, Washington, D.C.,

[00:10:09] Dallas, surprisingly, Seattle are kind of our main preorder kind of

[00:10:14] recipients that fall into that category.

[00:10:16] What was really surprising to us, though, was that we got a huge

[00:10:20] influx of interest from corporations that were using pickup trucks on a

[00:10:24] day to day basis that were operate in downtown cities and found that

[00:10:28] pickup trucks have just gotten too big to do the job they need to do.

[00:10:31] And that was a kind of an aha moment for us being like, wow, if we

[00:10:34] look at the landscape of pickup trucks that are purchased in the

[00:10:37] U.S. every year, about two thirds of them are purchased for

[00:10:39] commercial reasons in downtown cities.

[00:10:41] We look at the landscape of downtown city purchases, about two

[00:10:45] thirds are for commercial applications.

[00:10:46] And we thought, wow, there's a huge opportunity to kind of

[00:10:49] solve this problem.

[00:10:50] And these are people that really feel the pain of the

[00:10:53] gigantification of the pickup trucks.

[00:10:56] Which was almost a little bit of a surprise to our thesis when we were

[00:11:00] starting out.

[00:11:00] So we kind of did this market analysis of what exists.

[00:11:05] And I think one of the things that everyone is noticing and starting

[00:11:09] to notice more and more is that trucks have just gotten absolutely

[00:11:11] gigantic.

[00:11:12] And when you dig into why that is, it's really this unintended

[00:11:16] consequence of the EPA's 2010 rules, which finally put a mileage

[00:11:20] requirement, miles per gallon, which is a huge amount of

[00:11:24] requirements on trucks and SUVs.

[00:11:28] But they did that based on the footprint of the vehicle and all

[00:11:33] of the footprints of vehicles, basically the length because you

[00:11:37] can't really do much with the width.

[00:11:40] Every year that ratchets up and it ratchets up less and less

[00:11:44] the bigger your vehicle gets until a point where it doesn't

[00:11:48] actually change.

[00:11:49] And that's where all the vehicles now are being made, is at

[00:11:52] this giant size.

[00:11:54] And so we were kind of thinking, well, big trucks are good for fleets

[00:11:57] and construction and things like that.

[00:11:59] But it's the people that want to use them every day in an urban

[00:12:02] area that would want them.

[00:12:04] But fleets use them in urban areas too.

[00:12:06] And they're the ones really feeling a lot of this pain of the

[00:12:08] trucks getting so big.

[00:12:11] Yeah.

[00:12:11] I mean, I live in the city of Tempe and I will give all the credit in

[00:12:15] the world to Tempe because our taxes are high, but they provide

[00:12:19] great services, but they have a pretty decent size fleet of

[00:12:22] electric vehicles, mostly like leafs and bolts.

[00:12:26] But I could definitely see the Telo truck being something that

[00:12:31] they could use for a variety of different reasons.

[00:12:34] Like the water department will just come out and help you set up

[00:12:38] your irrigation so you're not wasting water and stuff like that.

[00:12:42] But this guy has all sorts of things in the back of his leaf

[00:12:46] that he needs for his job.

[00:12:48] And it's maybe not the most practical, but a small pickup

[00:12:52] would be very practical for him.

[00:12:54] Absolutely.

[00:12:54] We see that around here as you know, a lot as well, water

[00:12:57] departments and a lot of times people are idling in their

[00:12:59] trucks forever.

[00:13:00] You know, there's someone got a job, they have a truck because

[00:13:03] occasionally they need to bring some large thing that you

[00:13:06] don't, you know, that you don't want to necessarily have

[00:13:08] in your, in your vehicle.

[00:13:10] Um, but for the most of the time they're doing logistics

[00:13:12] of being somewhere, making sure something happens, sitting in

[00:13:15] their car, staying cool or warm.

[00:13:17] And EVs are just great for that.

[00:13:19] Right?

[00:13:19] Like, so let's take a lot of trucks and let's keep them from

[00:13:22] idling all the time.

[00:13:24] And let you know, when trucks need to be big and need to haul

[00:13:26] stuff great, like they should be diesel or hydrogen or

[00:13:30] biodiesel or something, but let's, let's electrify the

[00:13:33] ones that don't need to be hauling stuff across the

[00:13:35] country.

[00:13:36] Absolutely.

[00:13:37] Can you talk a little bit about the unique design?

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:41] So, um, well, forest is probably good to handle some

[00:13:44] of this because our third founder is a Yves Behar.

[00:13:47] So he's a, so we are, because we were going for the urban, um,

[00:13:51] uh, users and the city users, they're really, you know, we

[00:13:54] really felt like a modern design was going to be

[00:13:57] something that could help us a lot of modern simple

[00:13:59] design.

[00:14:00] Um, and Yves is really well known for that.

[00:14:03] And, uh, he worked with me on the motorcycle at mission

[00:14:06] motors, uh, 10 years, 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:09] So we, uh, like forest had worked with Yves for, you

[00:14:12] know, he's known for 15 years, uh, all the way back in

[00:14:14] mission motor days.

[00:14:16] And force and I were chatting, we were like, we know

[00:14:17] we want to do this mini truck concept.

[00:14:19] And we had an idea of kind of how we would package

[00:14:22] the people and power train and the tires and kind

[00:14:26] of like the engineering pieces of it.

[00:14:27] But forest kind of looked at it and goes, this

[00:14:29] thing isn't going to sell to the NASA.

[00:14:32] It's like, we need to have something that'll stand

[00:14:33] out that really kind of make an impact in the

[00:14:35] world.

[00:14:36] And from a visual perspective, and he was

[00:14:38] like, nobody else makes sense, but to bring on

[00:14:40] Yves who I've known forever.

[00:14:42] And you've got, when you told me about it, he

[00:14:43] got so excited about doing this project.

[00:14:45] He's like, this is the coolest project ever.

[00:14:47] I'm so excited about this.

[00:14:49] And he came on as an investor first, then as a

[00:14:51] partner, then as a co-founder.

[00:14:53] So he kind of just ratcheted his involvement

[00:14:55] up and up and up because he got more and more

[00:14:56] excited about the project.

[00:14:59] Yeah.

[00:14:59] I, I'm, I'll put a picture, um, as the, of

[00:15:03] the truck as the actual show art.

[00:15:06] Uh, but for anybody who hasn't looked at this

[00:15:09] vehicle, they should go look, you have a very

[00:15:12] cool feature.

[00:15:13] At least I thought it was really cool.

[00:15:14] You have an exposed front wheel, and then you

[00:15:17] have the pill shape on the door.

[00:15:19] Can you explain why you have that?

[00:15:21] This is like, when I first saw your truck,

[00:15:23] I was like, oh, that's a cool design concept.

[00:15:26] But then there's an actual function in

[00:15:27] the utility behind that.

[00:15:30] Yeah.

[00:15:30] So the, one of the challenges we had is

[00:15:33] how do you package people as effectively

[00:15:35] into the vehicle as possible?

[00:15:36] And the way to do that is to kind of move

[00:15:37] the tires as far away from the people as you

[00:15:40] can.

[00:15:41] So we moved the front tires all the way,

[00:15:42] almost all the way to the front and the

[00:15:43] back tires a good amount towards the rear.

[00:15:45] What that did is it prevented us from

[00:15:47] actually having the fully enclosed front

[00:15:50] tire because of the tire has turned and

[00:15:52] move up and down.

[00:15:53] And so in order to actually keep the

[00:15:55] vehicle short, you know, if you throw

[00:15:57] a bumper over it or a cover over it,

[00:15:59] it actually has to be significantly longer

[00:16:01] than the actual movement of the tire to

[00:16:03] avoid any rubbing.

[00:16:04] So we said, okay, we're going to try to

[00:16:05] have exposed front tires as much as

[00:16:07] possible at the regulations allow.

[00:16:10] And in doing so, what happens is air

[00:16:12] is automatically hit by the tire and

[00:16:14] the exposed areas around the tire as

[00:16:16] you move through the vehicle.

[00:16:17] Aerodynamics is a huge component of an

[00:16:19] electric vehicle because the better

[00:16:21] aerodynamic components you have.

[00:16:22] So the less aerodynamic drag you

[00:16:24] have, the more efficient your vehicle

[00:16:26] is, the longer it can go, the

[00:16:27] better range it has.

[00:16:28] So we wanted to do is even though we

[00:16:30] had exposed tires to have the best

[00:16:32] range we could.

[00:16:33] So when you have exposed tires, you

[00:16:35] get this big pocket of air that

[00:16:36] goes to really high pressure behind

[00:16:38] that tire because that's where the

[00:16:39] wheel well sits.

[00:16:41] And we needed a way to release that

[00:16:42] pressure back into the world and kind

[00:16:44] of reattach it to the flow of air

[00:16:45] around it.

[00:16:46] So we have is a channel that kind

[00:16:48] of directs air back into the flow

[00:16:51] of air next to the side.

[00:16:52] And in doing so, it's an

[00:16:53] engineering component similar to how

[00:16:55] an F1 car has a barge board.

[00:16:57] But we added a design element to

[00:16:58] it as well to kind of call it out

[00:16:59] so you can see that visually.

[00:17:03] Yeah, that's that.

[00:17:03] That is that shows.

[00:17:07] I mean, not to say that you guys

[00:17:08] aren't thinking, but that's like

[00:17:09] really creative for us.

[00:17:11] Are there any other hidden design

[00:17:12] features that also have a utility?

[00:17:17] Interesting.

[00:17:18] We're very excited about the

[00:17:19] mid-gate.

[00:17:20] You know, mid gates have been

[00:17:22] done before, but I think it's

[00:17:23] really practical for this type of

[00:17:25] vehicle where it's not a truck

[00:17:29] where you're necessarily going to

[00:17:30] the to the landscape store and

[00:17:33] getting a ton of gravel.

[00:17:35] It's more set up, you know, for

[00:17:38] going on a mountain biking trip

[00:17:39] or camping or hauling stuff around

[00:17:42] the city.

[00:17:43] And so especially in the city, you

[00:17:44] want to have tonneau cover and

[00:17:45] you want to protect stuff in the

[00:17:47] bed.

[00:17:48] So it allows you to put really

[00:17:49] long objects in.

[00:17:50] So a lot of people do that with

[00:17:52] hatchbacks already, right?

[00:17:53] They'll put surfboards in their

[00:17:54] hatchback and move seats around.

[00:17:56] So it just gives you a lot of

[00:17:57] capability.

[00:17:57] So I like that one.

[00:17:59] I would say another design

[00:18:00] feature really is just, you know,

[00:18:02] just what Jason was mentioning

[00:18:03] about moving the wheels.

[00:18:05] Part of that's for for spacing

[00:18:06] for the passenger compartment,

[00:18:07] but also it's for the battery

[00:18:09] pack.

[00:18:09] So we really, you know, I

[00:18:11] personally feel like you've got

[00:18:12] to have over 300 miles of range

[00:18:14] to have a decent electric

[00:18:17] vehicle.

[00:18:17] We get some pushback from

[00:18:19] people are like, oh, I'm in

[00:18:20] the city.

[00:18:20] Like, you know, why not smaller

[00:18:21] battery packs that could be

[00:18:23] cheaper and maybe in the

[00:18:25] future we'll we'll have some

[00:18:27] different sizes.

[00:18:28] But we wanted to really anchor

[00:18:29] at the most range that we

[00:18:30] could get in this vehicle

[00:18:31] because we want to we want to

[00:18:33] take people from the city and

[00:18:34] let them get out into the

[00:18:35] country, you know, get up into

[00:18:36] the mountains.

[00:18:37] Let's talk about the battery

[00:18:39] technology a little bit,

[00:18:40] because I know this is kind of

[00:18:41] your specialty as much as you

[00:18:43] can talk about.

[00:18:43] I understand there's probably

[00:18:44] some things you don't want to

[00:18:45] talk about.

[00:18:45] But what's different about the

[00:18:48] Telo truck than say what

[00:18:50] Tesla is doing or Lucid or

[00:18:52] you know Hyundai?

[00:18:54] Yeah, well, I'd say, you

[00:18:55] know, battery pack is really

[00:18:57] equivalent to when you're

[00:18:59] thinking about the past of

[00:19:00] automobile world, it's really

[00:19:02] equivalent to the engine of

[00:19:04] the vehicle.

[00:19:04] And people often think that

[00:19:06] it's more equivalent to the gas

[00:19:08] tank.

[00:19:08] But really, the battery defines

[00:19:11] all the characteristics that

[00:19:12] the motor will just end up

[00:19:13] delivering.

[00:19:15] So how much torque, how much

[00:19:17] power, which is essentially

[00:19:19] current, how much top speed,

[00:19:20] which is voltage, you know,

[00:19:22] how fast it will charge, all

[00:19:23] of the things that really kind

[00:19:24] of start to matter to the

[00:19:25] to the user.

[00:19:27] So battery pack needs to be

[00:19:29] designed for the vehicle and

[00:19:30] for the purpose that it's

[00:19:31] intended in.

[00:19:32] So for us, the real strong

[00:19:35] intention is this form factor,

[00:19:39] getting as much capacity into

[00:19:41] a small space as possible and

[00:19:42] doing that where we can still

[00:19:44] cool it and have the safety

[00:19:46] and all of the important

[00:19:47] things of a battery pack.

[00:19:49] So other vehicles will have

[00:19:50] different requirements.

[00:19:54] You know, a lot of them are

[00:19:55] taller.

[00:19:56] Ours is very efficient in the

[00:19:58] Z height because any height of

[00:19:59] the battery directly translates

[00:20:02] to the height of the roof.

[00:20:03] And the height of the roof

[00:20:03] directly translates to your

[00:20:05] your coefficient of drag.

[00:20:06] So, yeah, we're just, we've

[00:20:08] really optimized this pack for

[00:20:10] our vehicle and we've also used

[00:20:11] some of the most modern

[00:20:12] technology in making a

[00:20:13] manufacturable pack on at

[00:20:16] small volumes.

[00:20:17] So we really, we feel great

[00:20:18] about us building this pack

[00:20:21] in a cost efficient

[00:20:23] manufacturable way.

[00:20:24] We're using off the shelf

[00:20:24] cells.

[00:20:26] So as cells, as chemistry

[00:20:28] improves, the capacity of cells

[00:20:30] improves and we get those

[00:20:32] improvements right off the bat.

[00:20:34] Excellent.

[00:20:34] Are using 2170 cells?

[00:20:37] Yes.

[00:20:39] Yeah, one thing that's really

[00:20:40] important with what Forest just

[00:20:41] said I want to highlight is

[00:20:43] when you design your vehicle

[00:20:44] you set up a set of

[00:20:44] requirements for that vehicle.

[00:20:46] If our set of requirements

[00:20:47] were we need to hit zero to

[00:20:48] 60 in sub two seconds and be

[00:20:50] the fastest vehicle out there

[00:20:51] that would require a set of

[00:20:52] design parameters that are

[00:20:54] significantly different than

[00:20:54] design parameters we have

[00:20:56] because we're still a zero

[00:20:57] to 60 in four seconds, which

[00:20:59] is massively impressive for a

[00:21:00] mini truck, but it gives us

[00:21:02] the opportunity to really focus

[00:21:03] on the things that matter for

[00:21:04] the utility of our vehicle.

[00:21:06] And that's packaging efficiency

[00:21:07] and manufacturing efficiency.

[00:21:10] And we felt like that wow

[00:21:11] factor, like that worked for

[00:21:13] for the early companies, but

[00:21:14] now people are kind of like,

[00:21:15] okay, I mean you might do

[00:21:16] that a few times to impress

[00:21:17] somebody, but is that really

[00:21:19] what you should make massive

[00:21:20] compromises around the

[00:21:21] vehicle for?

[00:21:22] Oh yeah, the things that

[00:21:23] make EVs fun, even the most

[00:21:27] basic EV has that it's not

[00:21:30] it's not as if you're going

[00:21:31] to go by I mean, Hyundai

[00:21:33] Kona, the honey Kona EV is

[00:21:34] a great vehicle, but you're

[00:21:35] not going to go by Hyundai

[00:21:36] Kona EV and be disappointed

[00:21:37] in the pickup if you cut.

[00:21:40] When I say pickup acceleration,

[00:21:43] yeah, if you came from a gas

[00:21:44] vehicle, if he came from a

[00:21:45] performance model, as probably

[00:21:47] you might be a little

[00:21:48] disappointed, but most people

[00:21:49] aren't going to be

[00:21:49] disappointed in that.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:53] All right.

[00:21:54] What about what are your

[00:21:56] expectations?

[00:21:56] You said the range was going

[00:21:57] to be 350 miles.

[00:21:59] How do you, how were you

[00:22:02] designing for durability of

[00:22:03] that battery pack?

[00:22:05] Are using LFPs cells or like

[00:22:08] how are we going to keep our

[00:22:09] battery pack happy and healthy

[00:22:11] for as long as possible?

[00:22:13] Great question.

[00:22:13] Yeah.

[00:22:14] I mean, our focus is on

[00:22:16] keeping the pack.

[00:22:17] The term is isothermal.

[00:22:19] So like really keeping every

[00:22:21] cell as cells, thermal

[00:22:24] experience to be the same as

[00:22:25] all the other cells.

[00:22:26] So basically you can think

[00:22:28] about a cell as a chemistry

[00:22:29] experiment.

[00:22:30] And if you ever, you know,

[00:22:31] we're doing any chemistry in

[00:22:32] high school or whatever.

[00:22:33] Basically if you add heat to

[00:22:35] any kind of chemistry

[00:22:35] experiment, it usually goes

[00:22:37] faster.

[00:22:39] So temperature has a big,

[00:22:41] you know, effect on

[00:22:44] chemistry.

[00:22:45] So these little batteries as

[00:22:47] the, as I assume in the

[00:22:48] little chemistry experiments,

[00:22:49] if they're going through

[00:22:50] life and experiencing

[00:22:51] different thermal gradients,

[00:22:53] they degrade at different

[00:22:54] rates.

[00:22:55] And that is a real problem

[00:22:56] in batteries.

[00:22:57] That's why cooling is so

[00:22:59] important.

[00:23:00] So the durability of a

[00:23:01] battery is about, essentially

[00:23:03] is about good cooling

[00:23:07] strategy and protecting those

[00:23:09] batteries from any intrusion.

[00:23:11] So those are the two things

[00:23:11] that we've really focused on

[00:23:14] keeping the Z height really

[00:23:15] low, keeping the cooling to be

[00:23:17] as isothermal as possible and

[00:23:21] moving the cells as far in

[00:23:22] from the edges as we can.

[00:23:24] Okay.

[00:23:25] To protect them against

[00:23:27] intrusion.

[00:23:28] You know, this next question

[00:23:29] was not one that I wrote

[00:23:30] down, but what do you wish

[00:23:33] people knew more about when

[00:23:34] it came to like battery cell

[00:23:36] technology?

[00:23:37] Cause you hear all sorts of

[00:23:38] things in the media and then

[00:23:39] that gets parroted in, you

[00:23:41] know, cocktail parties or

[00:23:42] barbecues or whatever.

[00:23:44] What's like one thing you

[00:23:46] wish you could just dispel

[00:23:47] that myth altogether when it

[00:23:49] comes to batteries?

[00:23:52] Well, that's an excellent

[00:23:52] question.

[00:23:53] Let me think on that.

[00:23:53] Do you have a?

[00:23:54] I do.

[00:23:56] And it's really though around,

[00:23:57] I think, I think there's a

[00:23:58] lot of misnomers around

[00:24:00] charging and what people

[00:24:02] consider when they think about

[00:24:03] charging.

[00:24:03] I read an article recently.

[00:24:05] Um, actually it was just last

[00:24:06] week that was like, we hit

[00:24:08] this amazing charge rate for

[00:24:09] this battery pack, but the

[00:24:10] battery pack was over 200

[00:24:12] kilowatt hours.

[00:24:14] And so the, if you look at

[00:24:16] the charge rate that they hit

[00:24:17] and the size of the pack,

[00:24:18] it would actually take longer

[00:24:19] to charge than the existing

[00:24:21] packs that exist today at a

[00:24:22] lower charge rate.

[00:24:24] And so there's a misnomer

[00:24:25] around the, what it actually

[00:24:27] means to charge quickly and

[00:24:29] what that means for the

[00:24:29] battery pack and what that

[00:24:31] means for over time.

[00:24:32] Cause a lot of times people

[00:24:33] see it hit a very fast charge

[00:24:34] rate very instantaneously.

[00:24:36] And then, but if you look at

[00:24:37] it over time, that charge

[00:24:38] rates, actually the average

[00:24:39] of that charge rate might be

[00:24:39] a little lower than you

[00:24:40] expect, which is why charging

[00:24:41] takes so long.

[00:24:43] There's so many things

[00:24:44] associated with how like

[00:24:46] over time, if you look at

[00:24:48] voltage versus time in a

[00:24:49] charging, it's not a linear

[00:24:50] fashion.

[00:24:51] There's it's a very unique

[00:24:52] kind of graph.

[00:24:53] That's that's maybe people

[00:24:55] don't understand that's that

[00:24:56] charging doesn't one to one

[00:24:58] with voltage and it isn't one

[00:25:00] to one.

[00:25:00] And you have to compare it

[00:25:02] in a different way when you

[00:25:03] look at the grand scheme of

[00:25:04] things.

[00:25:06] Yeah, I would compare it a

[00:25:08] little bit with what Jason's

[00:25:09] saying on the charging side.

[00:25:11] So, you know, I started at

[00:25:12] Tesla in 2005 working on

[00:25:15] solar cars before that

[00:25:16] since 94.

[00:25:19] Oh my God for 20 years

[00:25:20] trying to tell people

[00:25:21] like the charging is not

[00:25:22] like filling up a tank of

[00:25:23] gas and I still I'm looking

[00:25:25] online and like people need

[00:25:26] to be shouting it from the

[00:25:27] rooftops.

[00:25:28] They need to be telling

[00:25:28] everybody like you're not

[00:25:31] going to drive a vehicle

[00:25:32] like from 100 percent state

[00:25:33] of charge to zero percent

[00:25:34] of state of charge and then

[00:25:35] expect to fill it up in

[00:25:36] three minutes because that's

[00:25:37] just not how you would

[00:25:38] use it.

[00:25:38] Like it's not how you use

[00:25:39] your phone or you don't

[00:25:41] you don't just like drain

[00:25:42] it to zero and then be

[00:25:43] like oh my God I need to

[00:25:44] charge it right like you

[00:25:46] you charge it based on

[00:25:47] your life's like your

[00:25:48] your schedule you know so

[00:25:50] your you go to work and

[00:25:52] you maybe you plug in your

[00:25:53] computer while you're at

[00:25:54] work.

[00:25:55] You when you get home you

[00:25:56] plug in your phone before

[00:25:57] you go to sleep and that's

[00:25:58] exactly how charging should

[00:25:59] be happening with the

[00:26:00] with the vehicle.

[00:26:01] It gets harder with if you

[00:26:02] have an apartment or you're

[00:26:04] in a condo in a city and

[00:26:05] so there's there's a lot

[00:26:06] of charging infrastructure

[00:26:07] that still needs to be

[00:26:08] built but is definitely

[00:26:10] charging is much more

[00:26:11] about opportunity and

[00:26:12] charging in appropriate

[00:26:14] times than the gas station

[00:26:16] model.

[00:26:17] Now that being said the

[00:26:18] gas station model needs

[00:26:20] to be there so that you

[00:26:21] can go to other cities.

[00:26:24] But that happens so

[00:26:25] rarely I mean I've been

[00:26:26] driving an electric car

[00:26:28] since 2011.

[00:26:30] I still have a Nissan

[00:26:30] Lee from 2011 and I

[00:26:32] mean I fast charged maybe

[00:26:33] like less than a dozen

[00:26:34] times.

[00:26:36] I just because every

[00:26:37] morning it's full and

[00:26:39] you just you know

[00:26:40] charging basically regresses

[00:26:43] to the mean and that

[00:26:44] everybody drives

[00:26:45] essentially eight kilowatt

[00:26:46] hours a day worth of

[00:26:47] charging and that's kind

[00:26:49] of what ends up

[00:26:50] happening.

[00:26:51] Yeah I could see that

[00:26:51] and a lot of that I

[00:26:52] think what you're what

[00:26:53] you're talking about in

[00:26:54] terms of where people

[00:26:56] might get frustrated

[00:26:57] like in Chicago last

[00:26:59] year where it was

[00:27:00] really cold that nobody

[00:27:01] was preconditioning their

[00:27:02] batteries.

[00:27:03] Some of those vehicles

[00:27:05] weren't even able to

[00:27:05] precondition batteries

[00:27:06] and then it just took

[00:27:07] forever to charge.

[00:27:08] A lot of people had to

[00:27:09] be towed away.

[00:27:10] I think automakers all

[00:27:12] of them do a pretty

[00:27:14] poor job in terms of

[00:27:16] educating their customers

[00:27:18] on these edge cases

[00:27:20] because it's fine when

[00:27:21] you're plugging in

[00:27:22] every night and you

[00:27:23] get up and it's cold

[00:27:24] outside no big deal

[00:27:25] your car was plugged

[00:27:26] in.

[00:27:26] It's probably heating

[00:27:27] the battery while it's

[00:27:28] plugged in.

[00:27:30] But when you are an

[00:27:32] Uber driver and you

[00:27:32] need to go to work

[00:27:34] and there's 50 other

[00:27:35] people in front of you

[00:27:36] and tow trucks are

[00:27:37] coming in and out

[00:27:37] because cars are

[00:27:38] bricked it becomes

[00:27:40] problematic and it's

[00:27:41] it's bad PR for the

[00:27:42] automotive companies.

[00:27:44] Yeah absolutely.

[00:27:46] Charging is a huge

[00:27:48] issue I think it's

[00:27:48] it's the it is the

[00:27:50] thing holding back the

[00:27:51] EV industry at this

[00:27:52] time.

[00:27:53] And I've you know I

[00:27:55] felt like there was

[00:27:56] so many companies tackling

[00:27:57] it that we would be

[00:27:57] farther along by now.

[00:27:59] But but it needs more

[00:28:01] work.

[00:28:01] I do have a question

[00:28:02] about that but I'll

[00:28:02] wait till the end.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:04] Based on recent news.

[00:28:07] Jason you are in

[00:28:08] charge of safety.

[00:28:09] I mean you're the

[00:28:10] CEO but your specialty

[00:28:11] is safety.

[00:28:12] Can you talk a little

[00:28:13] bit about what

[00:28:14] Tello's truck has in

[00:28:15] terms of safety

[00:28:17] features.

[00:28:18] Yeah.

[00:28:19] So I think that kind

[00:28:20] of setting the tone

[00:28:21] of this conversation

[00:28:22] like we're currently

[00:28:24] at an all time high

[00:28:25] on pedestrian deaths

[00:28:26] on US roadways.

[00:28:27] They estimate 10,000

[00:28:29] pedestrians will be

[00:28:29] killed on US roadways

[00:28:30] this year and 40,000

[00:28:32] will be killed in

[00:28:33] vehicle accidents

[00:28:34] altogether in the US.

[00:28:36] And if you look at

[00:28:37] those statistics the

[00:28:38] majority of those

[00:28:39] pedestrian deaths are

[00:28:39] caused by light duty

[00:28:40] trucks which includes

[00:28:41] SUVs and trucks

[00:28:43] vans and many

[00:28:44] of them are happening

[00:28:45] in downtown areas.

[00:28:48] So we see that

[00:28:49] the size of the

[00:28:50] pickup truck getting

[00:28:51] so massive and

[00:28:52] egregiously large and

[00:28:54] throwing 3000 pounds

[00:28:54] of batteries on it to

[00:28:55] make it electric

[00:28:56] is only going to

[00:28:57] exacerbate that issue

[00:28:58] and cause a lot of issues.

[00:29:00] We're at a pretty

[00:29:01] decent state with

[00:29:03] occupant protection

[00:29:04] in crash safety these

[00:29:05] days.

[00:29:06] A lot of science has

[00:29:07] gone into it

[00:29:07] but a lot of the

[00:29:08] science that goes

[00:29:08] into doesn't actually

[00:29:09] make its way into

[00:29:10] the vehicles.

[00:29:11] So one of the things

[00:29:12] I learned working at

[00:29:13] in kind of the space

[00:29:15] of vehicle safety

[00:29:16] was that all this

[00:29:17] investment had been

[00:29:17] made into

[00:29:19] different types of

[00:29:19] safety both active

[00:29:20] safety which we call

[00:29:21] ADAS, autonomy

[00:29:23] and passive safety

[00:29:24] which we call crash

[00:29:25] safety that is just

[00:29:27] could be used to

[00:29:28] make a vehicle

[00:29:29] significantly safer

[00:29:29] than it was today

[00:29:30] to save occupants

[00:29:31] and to save pedestrians.

[00:29:33] So we do things

[00:29:34] like we employ

[00:29:34] the same type of

[00:29:35] technology that was

[00:29:36] used in autonomous

[00:29:37] driving but instead

[00:29:37] of using it for

[00:29:38] autonomous driving

[00:29:39] we do it to

[00:29:40] survey our

[00:29:40] surroundings to

[00:29:41] predict collisions.

[00:29:42] And if we can

[00:29:42] predict collisions

[00:29:43] with near certainty

[00:29:44] we can do things

[00:29:45] that very quickly

[00:29:46] anticipate a collision

[00:29:47] right before it

[00:29:48] happens and we

[00:29:49] can save occupants

[00:29:50] and we can save

[00:29:50] pedestrians as well

[00:29:52] when you do that.

[00:29:53] So we use a lot of

[00:29:54] predictive technology

[00:29:56] to actually

[00:29:56] determine a collision

[00:29:57] what kind of

[00:29:58] collision it may be

[00:29:58] the likelihood

[00:29:59] of that collision

[00:30:00] and to deploy safety

[00:30:02] in various areas

[00:30:03] in the vehicle

[00:30:04] to actually save

[00:30:04] the vehicle.

[00:30:05] On top of that

[00:30:06] we still have

[00:30:07] crumple zones

[00:30:08] right?

[00:30:09] Just like a vehicle

[00:30:10] would have

[00:30:10] crumple zones

[00:30:11] we pass

[00:30:11] FMVSS 208

[00:30:13] which is the

[00:30:13] frontal crash safety

[00:30:15] we will pass it

[00:30:15] we're working on

[00:30:16] all the simulations

[00:30:17] right now.

[00:30:18] And it's

[00:30:20] really interesting to

[00:30:20] note that

[00:30:21] the history of

[00:30:22] frontal crash safety

[00:30:22] has kind of existed

[00:30:23] with these long hoods

[00:30:24] these four foot long

[00:30:26] five foot long hoods

[00:30:26] of vehicles

[00:30:27] because it has to

[00:30:28] push a

[00:30:29] V8 engine out of the way

[00:30:31] somehow in that crash

[00:30:32] that's a big

[00:30:33] giant brick

[00:30:34] of iron

[00:30:35] that's

[00:30:35] immobile

[00:30:36] incompressible

[00:30:37] incompressible.

[00:30:38] So when you don't

[00:30:39] have that giant

[00:30:40] engine in front of you

[00:30:41] and you have a small

[00:30:42] motor that's kind of

[00:30:43] tucked underneath

[00:30:44] the footwell of a vehicle

[00:30:45] you can do things

[00:30:46] that just focus on

[00:30:48] minimizing the change

[00:30:49] and acceleration

[00:30:50] of that frontal area

[00:30:51] by complying strategies

[00:30:53] that have been kind of

[00:30:53] researched in the

[00:30:54] past few years

[00:30:55] but using different

[00:30:56] types of materials

[00:30:57] doing a different

[00:30:57] type of crumple

[00:30:58] that pushes the

[00:30:59] crumple out of the way

[00:31:00] and makes it so

[00:31:01] you don't need

[00:31:02] 30 inches

[00:31:03] 48 inches of hood

[00:31:05] to get the same

[00:31:06] results for change

[00:31:07] and acceleration

[00:31:07] for the occupants.

[00:31:09] Yeah.

[00:31:10] In terms of

[00:31:11] crumple zones

[00:31:12] right

[00:31:13] my audience is

[00:31:13] pretty familiar about this

[00:31:14] because I talk about

[00:31:15] this kind of thing

[00:31:15] all the time

[00:31:16] but one of the things

[00:31:18] it's great to

[00:31:18] have a crumple zone

[00:31:19] it's great to have

[00:31:20] this big long hood

[00:31:21] but if you get hit

[00:31:22] hard enough

[00:31:23] that motor is going to

[00:31:24] get pushed back

[00:31:25] into the cab

[00:31:26] so that is

[00:31:27] that is a

[00:31:29] I mean there's no way

[00:31:29] for the motor to crumple

[00:31:31] like you can have

[00:31:31] crumple zones

[00:31:32] all around the motor

[00:31:32] the whole point is

[00:31:34] that

[00:31:35] is for the

[00:31:35] crumple zone

[00:31:36] to design

[00:31:36] it's designed to

[00:31:37] take the energy

[00:31:38] away from the

[00:31:39] cab of that vehicle

[00:31:40] as much as possible

[00:31:41] but when you have

[00:31:42] that motor

[00:31:43] that gets smashed

[00:31:44] into the

[00:31:45] passenger compartment

[00:31:47] that kind of

[00:31:48] becomes problematic.

[00:31:49] One of the things

[00:31:50] I was curious about

[00:31:50] though

[00:31:51] in terms of

[00:31:51] pedestrian safety

[00:31:52] the front of your vehicle

[00:31:54] is pretty shallow.

[00:31:56] Now

[00:31:56] from what I understand

[00:31:57] and I'm not an

[00:31:58] expert in this

[00:31:58] but from what I

[00:31:59] understand

[00:31:59] a lot of

[00:32:00] especially like

[00:32:01] smaller cars

[00:32:02] are designed to

[00:32:03] kind of like

[00:32:03] if they hit somebody

[00:32:04] it's kind of

[00:32:05] designed to like

[00:32:06] flip them up

[00:32:06] onto the hood

[00:32:07] to protect them

[00:32:08] instead of like

[00:32:09] pushing them out

[00:32:09] into traffic

[00:32:10] so they can get

[00:32:10] injured more.

[00:32:12] Do you have that

[00:32:13] kind of

[00:32:16] like what happens

[00:32:16] if somebody gets hit

[00:32:17] as best as you

[00:32:18] can tell.

[00:32:19] Like we don't ever

[00:32:20] want to discuss this

[00:32:20] right but we want to

[00:32:21] know that car companies

[00:32:22] are thinking about it

[00:32:23] we don't want to

[00:32:24] put that into the world

[00:32:25] that somebody's

[00:32:25] going to get hit.

[00:32:27] Yeah without giving you

[00:32:28] too much in this space

[00:32:29] because this is kind of

[00:32:30] a little bit of our

[00:32:31] of our secret sauce

[00:32:32] is that

[00:32:33] we look at

[00:32:34] what happens

[00:32:34] right before

[00:32:36] a pedestrian would

[00:32:36] hit you

[00:32:37] would hit the vehicle

[00:32:38] and we do things

[00:32:39] that actually make it

[00:32:40] so that

[00:32:40] impact is

[00:32:41] significantly softer

[00:32:43] than

[00:32:43] the impact would

[00:32:44] otherwise be.

[00:32:46] And

[00:32:46] there's a couple of

[00:32:47] ways we do that

[00:32:47] one is that we

[00:32:48] use those same

[00:32:49] predictive sensors

[00:32:50] and we deploy safety

[00:32:52] in a certain way.

[00:32:53] The other way we do

[00:32:54] it is that

[00:32:55] we have significantly

[00:32:56] lower hood

[00:32:57] than any other

[00:32:58] truck does.

[00:32:59] Our line of vision

[00:33:00] by the way is very

[00:33:00] very good from

[00:33:01] the downward angle

[00:33:02] because our hood

[00:33:03] isn't very tall.

[00:33:04] So one of the

[00:33:05] problems that

[00:33:06] the pickup trucks

[00:33:07] up today have is

[00:33:08] I don't know if you've

[00:33:08] walked up to any of

[00:33:09] the pickup trucks

[00:33:09] built today but

[00:33:10] I almost can't see

[00:33:11] over them.

[00:33:13] And they're huge

[00:33:14] so if you get hit

[00:33:14] you get hit

[00:33:15] square on

[00:33:16] flat on

[00:33:17] you have nothing

[00:33:18] it's just

[00:33:18] it's just you and your body.

[00:33:20] A sedan is

[00:33:21] built in such a way that

[00:33:22] if you hit on the legs

[00:33:23] you fall over the front

[00:33:24] then you run into

[00:33:25] the issue of your

[00:33:25] head hitting the glass

[00:33:26] because you actually

[00:33:26] travel so far

[00:33:28] from a vertical position

[00:33:29] to an overhanging

[00:33:30] position.

[00:33:31] So we actually have

[00:33:31] looked at

[00:33:32] kind of

[00:33:32] what is the ideal

[00:33:33] way that

[00:33:34] is you cushion

[00:33:35] a pedestrian impact

[00:33:36] and it's a combination

[00:33:37] of not hitting them

[00:33:38] too high

[00:33:39] and not having this

[00:33:40] huge amount of

[00:33:40] distance you fall

[00:33:41] and not falling

[00:33:42] onto something super hard.

[00:33:44] So it's a combination

[00:33:44] of all three of those.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:47] It's really about

[00:33:48] the acceleration of the brain

[00:33:49] and the heart.

[00:33:50] So everything that we do

[00:33:51] is not necessarily about

[00:33:53] the acceleration of

[00:33:53] the B pillar

[00:33:54] or anything.

[00:33:54] It's just about

[00:33:55] where are all the

[00:33:57] the

[00:33:58] squishy

[00:33:58] gray matters

[00:33:59] in the situation

[00:34:00] and how can we

[00:34:01] accelerate them

[00:34:01] in the smoothest

[00:34:02] decelerate them

[00:34:03] in the smoothest way possible.

[00:34:05] But the best

[00:34:05] the best

[00:34:06] pedestrian accident

[00:34:07] is the one

[00:34:08] that doesn't happen.

[00:34:09] And

[00:34:10] if your vehicle

[00:34:10] is a lot smaller

[00:34:11] and you can see

[00:34:12] the ground in front of it

[00:34:14] we think that's

[00:34:14] one of the best things.

[00:34:16] Let's move on

[00:34:17] to something more positive.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:20] Let's talk about dead puppies.

[00:34:21] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:34:23] No.

[00:34:24] Let's talk about the software.

[00:34:26] Do you have

[00:34:28] are you prototyping software

[00:34:29] now?

[00:34:29] I would imagine

[00:34:30] because I think you said

[00:34:31] at some point

[00:34:33] in something I read

[00:34:33] at 2025 is when you

[00:34:35] expected to start shipping.

[00:34:37] How is the software

[00:34:38] coming along?

[00:34:39] How is that

[00:34:40] a user interface experience

[00:34:42] going to be for

[00:34:43] the customer?

[00:34:44] Yeah.

[00:34:45] I think one of the really cool things

[00:34:46] we do is we

[00:34:47] we have a

[00:34:47] a discord forum

[00:34:48] in which a lot of our

[00:34:49] pre-order people

[00:34:50] are part of

[00:34:50] and they give us a lot of

[00:34:52] direct product feedback

[00:34:53] of what they want to see

[00:34:54] from an HMI perspective,

[00:34:55] from a UX perspective,

[00:34:57] how they want to interact

[00:34:57] with the vehicle.

[00:34:59] One of the biggest

[00:35:00] points of feedback

[00:35:00] we get on that discord channel

[00:35:02] is that

[00:35:03] they want a simplification

[00:35:04] of the

[00:35:05] user experience.

[00:35:06] You know, one of the things

[00:35:07] we're doing is

[00:35:08] because we're such a unique

[00:35:09] vehicle for a specific

[00:35:10] utility case,

[00:35:11] people tend to say,

[00:35:12] look, I don't need

[00:35:13] some crazy luxury interior

[00:35:15] with screens everywhere

[00:35:16] that I have to go figure out

[00:35:17] all the interfaces to.

[00:35:19] I want to have haptics.

[00:35:21] I want to be able to touch things

[00:35:22] and feel them

[00:35:22] and move them around.

[00:35:24] So we're currently

[00:35:25] in the design phase

[00:35:26] of those type of haptics

[00:35:27] so that we they kind of

[00:35:28] abide by the electric vehicle world,

[00:35:31] but they're easy to use.

[00:35:32] They're simple.

[00:35:33] They do exactly what you

[00:35:33] they expect.

[00:35:34] You expect them to do.

[00:35:35] You don't have to stare

[00:35:36] at a screen for 10 seconds

[00:35:37] to change columns

[00:35:39] to actually do something.

[00:35:39] You just

[00:35:40] while you're driving,

[00:35:41] you can put your hand on something

[00:35:42] you can turn in

[00:35:42] and it changes the thing.

[00:35:44] So we're we're

[00:35:45] pushing towards a simplification

[00:35:46] and really focus on the utility

[00:35:48] of the actual use of the vehicle.

[00:35:50] So with that said,

[00:35:51] we are prototyping

[00:35:52] a lot of those elements of them

[00:35:54] and designing a lot

[00:35:54] of those elements.

[00:35:55] But it's a little simpler

[00:35:56] than maybe you would expect.

[00:35:58] We don't want to have a scenario

[00:35:59] where our screen goes black

[00:36:01] and your vehicles

[00:36:02] bricked for a time period.

[00:36:04] We want to really make

[00:36:05] a lot more analog components

[00:36:06] that actually don't

[00:36:07] have that same risk.

[00:36:10] How about Apple CarPlay

[00:36:10] and Android Auto?

[00:36:11] Is that

[00:36:13] we fully intend to do that,

[00:36:14] but we haven't spoken to.

[00:36:15] We haven't had a contract

[00:36:16] with either of them.

[00:36:17] OK, excellent.

[00:36:19] I want to talk a little bit

[00:36:20] about the Discord

[00:36:21] because you're not exactly

[00:36:23] building in public,

[00:36:24] but you are getting direct

[00:36:28] feedback from your customer base.

[00:36:31] So you do want to talk

[00:36:32] about why you set up a Discord

[00:36:33] and how valuable that's been.

[00:36:37] Yeah, I mean, it's been

[00:36:38] extremely valuable.

[00:36:39] So we set up a Discord

[00:36:41] actually one of our friends of mine

[00:36:43] had a his his building flooded

[00:36:48] and was building flooded.

[00:36:49] He established a Discord community

[00:36:51] where everyone was sharing

[00:36:52] information and trying

[00:36:53] to help each other out.

[00:36:54] And he came to me like, dude,

[00:36:55] you got to check out

[00:36:56] this community I built

[00:36:57] based on this situation I had.

[00:37:00] And we now are all

[00:37:01] like we get so much feedback.

[00:37:02] We're all friends.

[00:37:03] We all have this

[00:37:03] really great experience.

[00:37:05] And I think that you could have

[00:37:05] a similar situation at your company.

[00:37:08] You could get product feedback.

[00:37:09] You can have people sharing

[00:37:10] how they use it.

[00:37:10] You can kind of track

[00:37:11] how they want to intend

[00:37:12] to use the vehicle

[00:37:13] and you can directly feed that

[00:37:14] into your engineering cycle.

[00:37:16] So we actually built a CRM,

[00:37:18] a customer relationship manager

[00:37:19] around management

[00:37:21] tool around our Discord.

[00:37:22] So as people provide feedback,

[00:37:24] it directly channels it

[00:37:25] into our product portfolio

[00:37:27] and we goes right

[00:37:28] into our engineering

[00:37:29] kind of like front and center.

[00:37:30] So we wanted to make sure

[00:37:32] that we had an active

[00:37:32] Discord community

[00:37:33] so that we get as much

[00:37:34] feedback as possible

[00:37:35] so we could prove that

[00:37:36] we were doing the right things.

[00:37:37] I feel that a lot of people

[00:37:38] when they build,

[00:37:39] especially a consumer product,

[00:37:40] they go heads down for years,

[00:37:43] especially if it's hardware

[00:37:44] and they come out of it

[00:37:45] and the world's changed

[00:37:46] and they've built a product

[00:37:47] that no longer

[00:37:48] pertains to that world.

[00:37:49] So we really didn't want

[00:37:50] to run into that situation.

[00:37:52] We wanted to make sure

[00:37:53] that we were building a product

[00:37:53] that pertained to the world

[00:37:54] as it grew

[00:37:55] and we were making

[00:37:56] the right design decisions

[00:37:56] at the right time.

[00:37:58] And so the Discord

[00:37:58] has been an awesome way

[00:37:59] to do that.

[00:38:00] And we learned so much about

[00:38:01] our customers

[00:38:02] and it's pretty amazing.

[00:38:04] Yeah, yeah.

[00:38:05] That's a great loop, right?

[00:38:07] Is it just your pre-order

[00:38:09] customers get access to this?

[00:38:10] Can anybody get access to it?

[00:38:12] Anybody can get access to it.

[00:38:14] And we have people like

[00:38:15] we know that we've had investors

[00:38:17] that have looked at our company

[00:38:18] that joined under a fake name.

[00:38:20] We know if we kind of figure that out,

[00:38:22] they've tried to pry

[00:38:23] a little bit into things like that.

[00:38:24] But like everyone's welcome

[00:38:26] to join 100 percent.

[00:38:27] We want people

[00:38:28] to be active in this.

[00:38:29] We want it to be an open forum.

[00:38:30] We don't moderate it

[00:38:31] in terms of like

[00:38:32] if you have feedback for us,

[00:38:33] that's negative.

[00:38:34] We're not going to remove

[00:38:35] that feedback.

[00:38:36] We take it as a learning opportunity.

[00:38:37] And how would people

[00:38:39] get on the Discord

[00:38:40] if they wanted to do that?

[00:38:41] Is there a link on the website?

[00:38:42] Yeah, there's a

[00:38:43] there's a link on the website

[00:38:44] at the bottom of the website.

[00:38:45] Just click on the Discord link

[00:38:47] and it'll be take you right to it.

[00:38:48] You are required to introduce yourself.

[00:38:50] OK.

[00:38:51] That's the only requirement we have.

[00:38:53] And if you're a VC,

[00:38:53] you're required to introduce yourself.

[00:38:56] Right.

[00:38:57] With a fake intro maybe.

[00:38:59] No, you don't have to say

[00:38:59] don't just say who you are.

[00:39:01] Just just the question is

[00:39:02] how would you use the truck?

[00:39:03] We want to know.

[00:39:04] OK.

[00:39:04] We don't want people

[00:39:05] to necessarily just lurk.

[00:39:06] We want to have at least

[00:39:07] a little bit of feedback

[00:39:08] from everybody that you

[00:39:09] Yeah, of course.

[00:39:11] The whole point is to bring value

[00:39:13] to the actual product.

[00:39:16] OK, these next two questions

[00:39:19] I only have two more left.

[00:39:21] This is not meant to be

[00:39:22] in a negative way at all,

[00:39:24] but the reality is,

[00:39:25] is you're a startup

[00:39:26] and there are going to be challenges

[00:39:28] that you're facing now

[00:39:29] and you'll face in the future

[00:39:31] when you decide you're going to start

[00:39:32] production and all that stuff.

[00:39:34] So you got companies like Canoe,

[00:39:35] Fisker, Lordstown.

[00:39:37] And I'm not saying

[00:39:38] this is not a judgment on

[00:39:40] because some of those companies

[00:39:41] had some sketchy leaders.

[00:39:42] This is not a judgment

[00:39:43] on any of that stuff.

[00:39:44] But how do you

[00:39:45] do you look at those companies

[00:39:47] to see kind of where they failed

[00:39:48] and how are you handling

[00:39:51] when you come up

[00:39:51] against something that's similar?

[00:39:54] So we've seen this graveyard

[00:39:55] of electric vehicles

[00:39:56] over the last 20 years.

[00:39:57] We totally agree that it exists,

[00:39:59] and especially right now

[00:40:00] with the headwinds

[00:40:00] we're seeing in the electric

[00:40:01] vehicle industry, it's

[00:40:02] it's a bloodbath out there.

[00:40:04] It's crazy.

[00:40:05] But we absolutely have learned

[00:40:07] a hell of a lot from a lot of the people.

[00:40:09] But also there's a

[00:40:10] it's a little bit different time now

[00:40:12] than it was five years ago as well.

[00:40:14] So these combination

[00:40:15] of these two things really

[00:40:16] puts us in a unique position.

[00:40:17] Fundamentally, we want to be

[00:40:19] the most capital efficient automaker

[00:40:20] that's ever been around.

[00:40:22] And we feel that it's possible

[00:40:24] to do that because of both

[00:40:25] the learnings and the current

[00:40:26] situation of the world.

[00:40:27] So I'll give you a couple of kind

[00:40:29] of areas that we've really focused on.

[00:40:31] One is building a financial model

[00:40:33] that doesn't require high volume

[00:40:35] manufacturing that we build

[00:40:37] from our own factories

[00:40:38] to get to profitability.

[00:40:39] So, you know, one of our investors

[00:40:42] and advisors is Andy Palmer,

[00:40:45] the ex CEO of Aston Martin

[00:40:46] and the ex CEO of Nissan.

[00:40:48] And he really helped us

[00:40:49] build a financial model

[00:40:50] that is allows us

[00:40:51] to get to profitability

[00:40:52] at that low and mid volume

[00:40:54] and all the things necessary

[00:40:55] to actually do that

[00:40:56] because he did it at Aston Martin.

[00:40:57] He's done it before

[00:40:58] other vehicle programs.

[00:41:00] And that's possible

[00:41:02] because manufacturing doesn't require

[00:41:04] us to build our own factories anymore.

[00:41:06] We can contract manufacture

[00:41:07] at a minimum volume,

[00:41:09] and we can do that profitably now.

[00:41:12] Commercial off the shelf

[00:41:12] components is a huge component

[00:41:13] of what we do.

[00:41:14] We only innovate where innovation

[00:41:16] is necessary to build our vehicle.

[00:41:17] That's in the battery

[00:41:18] and the safety and the design.

[00:41:19] Those are the only areas

[00:41:20] we innovate on.

[00:41:21] The rest of it is actually all

[00:41:22] almost entirely purchased

[00:41:23] as commercial off

[00:41:24] the shelf components.

[00:41:25] And if you look at how

[00:41:26] that's changed over time,

[00:41:27] it's been absolutely incredible.

[00:41:28] You look at an inverter

[00:41:29] from 20 years ago

[00:41:30] that went into some

[00:41:31] of the first EVs.

[00:41:32] It was the size of the back

[00:41:34] of the entire trunk of a vehicle.

[00:41:36] And now that same 250

[00:41:37] horsepower inverter

[00:41:38] fits into the palm of my hands.

[00:41:40] It's just wild.

[00:41:41] What's possible?

[00:41:41] What's been possible?

[00:41:43] And the last piece really is

[00:41:45] software and AI

[00:41:46] and things that have enabled us

[00:41:47] to actually design and develop

[00:41:49] at just this crazy order

[00:41:50] of magnitude faster

[00:41:51] and efficiently than before.

[00:41:53] So we've already crashed

[00:41:53] our vehicle 100 times,

[00:41:55] you know, in the past

[00:41:56] you had to build 100 prototypes,

[00:41:57] run them against a sled,

[00:41:58] slam them into a wall.

[00:42:00] And that's a tens of millions

[00:42:01] of dollars to do that project.

[00:42:03] We hit a few buttons in software.

[00:42:04] It goes and executes

[00:42:05] a couple of crash tests

[00:42:06] on the cloud overnight.

[00:42:07] And we get a bunch of results back

[00:42:08] and we can make modifications

[00:42:09] and learn from that

[00:42:10] in a very short duration of time.

[00:42:12] And those three things together

[00:42:14] is kind of how we're

[00:42:14] building our company.

[00:42:16] In a really cost effective way,

[00:42:17] so I think Jason's really

[00:42:19] just address like the

[00:42:20] like these other companies

[00:42:21] may have spent a lot of money

[00:42:23] sometimes trying to

[00:42:25] engineer things

[00:42:25] and differentiate on ways

[00:42:26] that we don't think

[00:42:28] were maybe necessary.

[00:42:29] I would like to kind of step back

[00:42:31] and just be like, well,

[00:42:32] the whole market analysis.

[00:42:33] Why did those other

[00:42:35] vehicle companies that you've named?

[00:42:37] Why were they going after big trucks

[00:42:39] by making a big

[00:42:40] and electrified big truck?

[00:42:42] Because what were they

[00:42:43] going to differentiate on?

[00:42:44] So we've already kind of talked

[00:42:45] about how the market,

[00:42:46] you know, has grown to be big

[00:42:48] because of this unintended consequence.

[00:42:50] Well, when the market does that,

[00:42:51] it leaves a hole where

[00:42:54] the whole is the size of a vehicle

[00:42:56] that was that was super popular

[00:42:57] for 20 years.

[00:42:59] You know, like the the Ford Ranger,

[00:43:01] the Toyota S or five,

[00:43:04] all these small trucks

[00:43:05] that people will come to us

[00:43:06] and be like, I loved that truck.

[00:43:08] It was amazing.

[00:43:08] It could maneuver it.

[00:43:10] And so, you know,

[00:43:12] none of those vehicles

[00:43:13] that you were mentioning

[00:43:14] were really differentiating

[00:43:15] on anything.

[00:43:16] And what's hard is

[00:43:17] if you're a giant truck,

[00:43:18] the thing you can do

[00:43:19] better than anything else

[00:43:20] is you can you can haul.

[00:43:22] You can tow 10,000 pounds

[00:43:24] and you can tow it all day long.

[00:43:26] And EVs are just not going

[00:43:28] to be able to do that

[00:43:28] until there's a charging network

[00:43:29] that could support that.

[00:43:31] And so so you just

[00:43:33] entering a market

[00:43:34] where you're already kind of

[00:43:35] like a step down

[00:43:37] and they all experienced problems.

[00:43:39] So regardless of whether

[00:43:40] the leadership made

[00:43:41] the right decisions or whatever,

[00:43:42] that in the end,

[00:43:44] they're going for market

[00:43:44] that I think was a tough one

[00:43:46] to go after.

[00:43:46] I think in general, it's hard to

[00:43:49] build a vehicle that takes

[00:43:50] an existing vehicle platform

[00:43:51] and add and make it electric.

[00:43:53] I think that for the electric

[00:43:54] enthusiasts, they'll be super

[00:43:56] excited about that.

[00:43:56] But for the other

[00:43:58] 60 to 80 percent of the of the market,

[00:44:00] it's very hard to be like

[00:44:01] what trade off

[00:44:02] am I actually giving up?

[00:44:03] Like the vehicle electric

[00:44:04] vehicles more expensive.

[00:44:05] I have to learn a new

[00:44:07] mechanism of charging.

[00:44:09] Maybe I just stick

[00:44:10] with my gas vehicle,

[00:44:11] which really unique

[00:44:12] about our vehicle is that

[00:44:13] we didn't just throw batteries

[00:44:15] and an electric motor

[00:44:16] on an existing vehicle.

[00:44:17] Our vehicle is only possible

[00:44:18] because of the electrification

[00:44:20] process.

[00:44:21] You can't build

[00:44:22] our electric minichuck

[00:44:23] with the capabilities

[00:44:24] of an F-150 in the size

[00:44:25] of a Mini Cooper

[00:44:26] with a V8 gas engine.

[00:44:27] It wouldn't fit.

[00:44:29] It wouldn't pass crash safety.

[00:44:30] Wouldn't have enough room

[00:44:31] for passengers.

[00:44:32] So it's really unique for us

[00:44:33] that we're able to actually

[00:44:35] build this vehicle

[00:44:36] only because it's electric

[00:44:37] and we're offering it

[00:44:37] as a new market segment

[00:44:39] for someone that would want

[00:44:40] this type of vehicle.

[00:44:42] You would have to get 55

[00:44:43] to 60 miles per gallon.

[00:44:44] Yeah,

[00:44:46] yeah, because of the EPA

[00:44:47] and for us to write

[00:44:47] in order to actually

[00:44:48] build this vehicle,

[00:44:49] you would have to meet

[00:44:50] the EPA requirements,

[00:44:51] which for this year

[00:44:52] are 55 miles per gallon

[00:44:53] and in four years from now

[00:44:55] are 65 miles per gallon,

[00:44:57] which is, you know,

[00:44:57] very not going to meet that

[00:44:58] without having a battery pack anyway.

[00:45:01] So it's like, you know,

[00:45:02] now you're going to put

[00:45:03] two systems on a vehicle this size.

[00:45:04] So we're really doing something

[00:45:06] that electrification has enabled.

[00:45:08] It's awesome.

[00:45:08] Yeah, I had when 1994

[00:45:10] I bought a Mitsubishi

[00:45:12] two door pickup truck.

[00:45:13] My buddy had a Volkswagen

[00:45:14] pickup truck,

[00:45:15] very both very small vehicles

[00:45:17] and I loved

[00:45:18] I love both of those trucks.

[00:45:19] They were a lot of fun to drive

[00:45:21] and you know,

[00:45:23] if I could go back

[00:45:24] and pick up another one,

[00:45:25] I absolutely would

[00:45:26] because it was the perfect size for me,

[00:45:29] especially at the time

[00:45:30] because I was single.

[00:45:30] But this your vehicle

[00:45:32] seats five people, five adults.

[00:45:36] That's right.

[00:45:36] Comfortably.

[00:45:37] Do you want to talk about

[00:45:38] before we get to our last question,

[00:45:39] do you want to talk about the specs

[00:45:40] and the price of the truck?

[00:45:42] Yeah, so I mean, we wanted again,

[00:45:44] everything we wanted to do

[00:45:45] is an uncompromising utility vehicle.

[00:45:47] So we did is we kind of thought

[00:45:50] we surveyed the markets

[00:45:51] and what do you really need

[00:45:52] of an uncompromising utility vehicle?

[00:45:54] Well, six thousand pounds

[00:45:55] towing we heard great.

[00:45:56] Our vehicle can tow six thousand pounds,

[00:45:58] 1600 pounds of payload grade.

[00:46:00] Our vehicle can carry six

[00:46:02] 1600 pounds, no problem.

[00:46:04] Four wheel drive.

[00:46:06] Check.

[00:46:07] 350 miles of range seats, five people.

[00:46:10] These are all things

[00:46:11] that you would expect

[00:46:11] from a utility pickup truck

[00:46:13] that we all included in our vehicle.

[00:46:14] And we can do that

[00:46:15] because it's such a small

[00:46:16] and efficient packaging of the vehicle

[00:46:18] at a price point that's fairly

[00:46:21] fairly impressive in my mind.

[00:46:22] But $50,000 before incentives.

[00:46:24] That's what we're talking about here.

[00:46:26] So a vehicle that really

[00:46:27] comes in at an approachable price point.

[00:46:29] If you look at the average cost

[00:46:30] of a pickup truck in the US, it's $61,000.

[00:46:33] And there's no electric incentives

[00:46:35] on the average pickup

[00:46:36] truck in the US.

[00:46:37] And the luxury market is even higher.

[00:46:39] Seventy five above.

[00:46:41] Sure, sure.

[00:46:42] And then the EV market

[00:46:43] is right in that same 7580.

[00:46:45] Like, it's really hard to get a truck

[00:46:47] that is an EV truck

[00:46:48] that is affordable by mere mortals.

[00:46:52] You know, like I never thought

[00:46:54] in my life when I was 18

[00:46:56] and I bought my truck for $9,000,

[00:46:57] I didn't think I'd ever spend

[00:46:59] fifty eight thousand dollars on a car.

[00:47:01] And after everything is all said and done,

[00:47:04] like that's just ridiculously expensive.

[00:47:07] So what you guys are doing is great.

[00:47:09] You're keeping it affordable

[00:47:10] so that people can actually

[00:47:12] buy them and use them.

[00:47:15] OK, so this is the last question.

[00:47:16] You can decline to answer

[00:47:17] this last question, but it has to do

[00:47:18] with charging infrastructure.

[00:47:20] You're I believe I read somewhere

[00:47:22] or saw somewhere that you're going to use

[00:47:24] Nax on the truck for charging.

[00:47:27] Yes, do you have any concerns

[00:47:28] about Elon laying off

[00:47:29] the entire supercharger team?

[00:47:33] Yes, we're keeping an eye

[00:47:35] on how things play out.

[00:47:38] I think that we don't understand

[00:47:40] all the pieces of the pie right now,

[00:47:41] so we can't really

[00:47:43] comment on it too much.

[00:47:44] What we do know, though,

[00:47:45] is that the NACS plug,

[00:47:47] the North American Charging Standard plug,

[00:47:49] you know, it's not the Tesla plug,

[00:47:50] it's the North American

[00:47:51] Charging Standard plug

[00:47:53] is an extremely space

[00:47:54] efficient package plug.

[00:47:55] It kind of abides by our whole thesis

[00:47:57] of our company around space efficiency

[00:47:59] and it's capable of charging our vehicle

[00:48:01] extremely quickly.

[00:48:03] So we quite we quite like that technology.

[00:48:06] So our plan is to be native,

[00:48:08] like so the outlet on our vehicle

[00:48:10] will be that NACS,

[00:48:12] not no adapter or anything.

[00:48:13] Sure, sure.

[00:48:14] And I like

[00:48:16] anytime Elon does something

[00:48:18] that seems crazy,

[00:48:18] it always seems to work out in some way,

[00:48:21] whether he reverses,

[00:48:22] somebody cleans up the mess.

[00:48:23] I don't know how it works,

[00:48:24] but it does seem to work out

[00:48:26] on some level.

[00:48:29] As far as and you may or may not know this,

[00:48:31] as far as the Society of Automotive Engineers,

[00:48:34] the J 3400 standard,

[00:48:35] does that not just mean

[00:48:36] that anybody can use that now?

[00:48:38] Maybe they have to pay a licensing fee

[00:48:39] to Tesla to build those things.

[00:48:40] But is that not

[00:48:42] isn't that what we wanted

[00:48:43] was that to be opened up

[00:48:45] as a as a national standard

[00:48:47] or an international standard?

[00:48:50] Well, you know,

[00:48:50] the greatest thing about standards

[00:48:52] is there's so many to pick from.

[00:48:54] Yeah, so on the charging side,

[00:48:57] I think it's less about

[00:48:59] the standard that

[00:49:01] that people adopt.

[00:49:03] And it's more about the quality

[00:49:04] of the charging stations that exist.

[00:49:06] And is there a business model

[00:49:08] that supports them

[00:49:09] being put in the ground?

[00:49:11] And I think that's the thing

[00:49:13] that that everyone's

[00:49:14] still struggling with.

[00:49:15] And so the reason I'm a little surprised

[00:49:17] at the recent move

[00:49:20] is that the most successful

[00:49:22] network out there has been

[00:49:25] Tesla's and it's been

[00:49:27] they put it in originally

[00:49:28] and they put that price

[00:49:29] as part of the vehicle.

[00:49:31] And that's what to me

[00:49:32] makes the most sense

[00:49:33] for for the charging network,

[00:49:35] because there isn't

[00:49:36] a great business model

[00:49:38] that I can see

[00:49:39] for putting in fast charging.

[00:49:41] If you're just if you're

[00:49:42] a private third party,

[00:49:44] you know, the gas station model

[00:49:45] is not quite

[00:49:47] that isn't the same

[00:49:48] because 100 percent of gasoline

[00:49:50] vehicles have to have

[00:49:51] to fill up at a gas station.

[00:49:53] But when you look at

[00:49:55] electric vehicles,

[00:49:56] it's like less than 10 percent

[00:49:58] will even ever, you know,

[00:50:00] use it on a per kilowatt scale.

[00:50:03] So just the amount of energy

[00:50:04] being delivered is like 10 percent

[00:50:05] is coming through fast chargers.

[00:50:07] And then as far as numbers

[00:50:08] of people using them,

[00:50:09] it is very small,

[00:50:10] but you need them there

[00:50:11] to sell the vehicle

[00:50:13] because people need to use them

[00:50:14] in that few instances

[00:50:15] that they need to use them.

[00:50:16] So it's just it's a tricky model.

[00:50:18] And the large OEM so far

[00:50:21] have not wanted to weigh in

[00:50:22] and support by putting in stations,

[00:50:26] you know, with a few exceptions.

[00:50:27] But, you know, by and large

[00:50:28] that they've wanted it

[00:50:29] to be a third party

[00:50:30] like an EVGO or, you know,

[00:50:32] a shell or somebody

[00:50:33] to come in and put in stations.

[00:50:35] So that's that that's the chasm.

[00:50:37] I think right now is like

[00:50:38] how do we get.

[00:50:40] 10 times or maybe 100 times

[00:50:42] more fast charging stations out there.

[00:50:44] Who's going to pay that?

[00:50:47] And who's going to get value from that?

[00:50:49] Because the value is to society

[00:50:51] and to EV drivers.

[00:50:53] So any OEM can go

[00:50:54] and install the NACS.

[00:50:58] Receptical port,

[00:51:00] get it to work with their battery pack,

[00:51:01] hook up the right contactors to it.

[00:51:03] It's that interface

[00:51:04] that you have

[00:51:05] with a particular charging station

[00:51:06] that is the software challenge

[00:51:08] of those effectively associated with that.

[00:51:10] And, you know, right now,

[00:51:12] the truth of the matter

[00:51:12] is the Tesla super chargers

[00:51:15] are extremely reliable

[00:51:17] in terms of in the grand scheme of things.

[00:51:18] And they have a great amount of uptime

[00:51:20] and compared to other

[00:51:21] charging stations out there.

[00:51:22] So people really want

[00:51:24] to interface with them

[00:51:25] because of that uptime and reliability.

[00:51:27] And that directly translates

[00:51:28] to what seems like the

[00:51:30] usefulness of your vehicle.

[00:51:31] So I think that it's less of a challenge

[00:51:33] on the OEM side of things

[00:51:34] because it's not really that hard

[00:51:36] to just build the

[00:51:37] build the hardware to do it,

[00:51:38] build the pieces necessary to do it.

[00:51:40] It's that interface that has to happen

[00:51:42] that has to get figured out.

[00:51:44] Sure. And I'll say this part.

[00:51:45] So you guys,

[00:51:46] you talk the same thing after this.

[00:51:48] But the the the

[00:51:50] I would imagine the scary part is again,

[00:51:52] you don't have to comment

[00:51:53] is that, you know,

[00:51:55] what happens if Elon cuts that off?

[00:51:57] Right. That's a scary part,

[00:51:58] especially for companies like Ford,

[00:52:01] you know, Rivian, GM.

[00:52:03] That's scary altogether.

[00:52:04] But we won't discuss that too much.

[00:52:06] But I do agree that it is something

[00:52:08] that sells vehicles like I know

[00:52:10] a guy in Maryland right now

[00:52:12] who's waiting for Rivian

[00:52:14] to switch over to the

[00:52:17] the next port so that he can

[00:52:20] he can buy one because he wants

[00:52:21] to use the supercharger at work.

[00:52:22] It's not only selling Tesla's,

[00:52:24] it's selling other vehicles as well.

[00:52:27] So. All right.

[00:52:29] And I can take that part out if you want.

[00:52:31] I won't I won't add it.

[00:52:31] No, no.

[00:52:32] I don't make things uncomfortable.

[00:52:34] All right.

[00:52:35] Well, thank you very much

[00:52:36] for one being so kind

[00:52:37] and two being so candid with your answers.

[00:52:40] Where can people find you

[00:52:41] if they're interested in what you're doing?

[00:52:44] Yeah, first off,

[00:52:45] please come join our discard,

[00:52:47] talk about our vehicle,

[00:52:48] talk about how you use our vehicle,

[00:52:49] give us feedback on the product.

[00:52:51] We're currently still

[00:52:52] in the design phase

[00:52:53] of a lot of pieces of the pie,

[00:52:55] and we would love to get your feedback.

[00:52:56] So the discord,

[00:52:58] which you can find on our website

[00:52:59] at TelloTrucks.com

[00:53:00] TeloTrucks.com

[00:53:04] will be more active

[00:53:05] on social platforms as well.

[00:53:06] We do have an Instagram,

[00:53:08] although it's relatively inactive currently,

[00:53:09] but we're bringing people on

[00:53:10] to help us make that more active.

[00:53:13] But I will say that you will get almost

[00:53:15] I will definitely weekly,

[00:53:16] but almost daily contact with our team

[00:53:17] if you join the discord channel.

[00:53:19] That's excellent.

[00:53:20] Do you have any personal

[00:53:23] social media that you would like people to follow?

[00:53:25] Not that I would share.

[00:53:26] OK, that's right.

[00:53:28] You don't need to see me

[00:53:29] flail around doing fitness activities.

[00:53:30] All right.

[00:53:31] Well, now that's it.

[00:53:32] Now that's a challenge

[00:53:33] for the folks out there to find it.

[00:53:35] All right, gentlemen,

[00:53:36] thank you so much for coming on.

[00:53:37] And again, I appreciate your time.

[00:53:41] Thank you, Bodhi.

[00:53:41] Thanks for being a champion of EVs.

[00:53:43] Yes, thanks.

[00:54:13] Hey, welcome to the next wave podcast.

[00:54:16] Consider us your chief AI officer in your business.

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[00:55:17] My business used to be weighed down

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[00:56:12] All right everybody, that is it for our show today.

[00:56:15] I wanna thank Forrest and Jason for coming on the show

[00:56:18] and being such great guests.

[00:56:20] I'd also like to thank Sydney

[00:56:22] for setting the interview up.

[00:56:23] Sydney, thank you very much.

[00:56:24] I appreciate it.

[00:56:26] And yeah, if you're curious about what Telo's doing,

[00:56:29] again, go to their website,

[00:56:31] sign up to their Discord,

[00:56:33] introduce yourself, say hello.

[00:56:35] And that website is telotrucks.com.

[00:56:41] All right everybody, that is it for me this episode.

[00:56:43] Hope you all had a wonderful week.

[00:56:45] I hope you have a wonderful day

[00:56:47] and I will talk to you soon.

[00:57:15] My business used to be weighed down

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