Paulina Personius: Rethinking Mining and Clean Energy with Earthworks

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, my name is Paulina Personius and I work for the

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: organization Earthworks as our international campaigner on what

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: is called our Making Clean Energy Clean Campaign, which

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_00]: focuses on mining and the energy transition.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone and welcome to Kilowatt, a podcast about

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: electric vehicles, renewable energy, autonomous driving

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and much, much more. My name is Bodhi and I am your host

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and on today's episode we sat down with Paulina Personius and we

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: chatted about a report that an organization called Earthworks

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: put out called Minimizing Mining Impacts on the Road to Zero

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Emissions Transport. And if you think you know what that means,

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you probably don't because I genuinely thought that this was

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: all going to be, this conversation was going to be all

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: about sustainable mining. And it's not that at all. Now I'm

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: not going to spoil it and give it away because Paulina and I are

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: going to discuss some of the things that are in this report.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will tell you, I was pleasantly surprised. I learned

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot. I actually woke up this morning at six o'clock, started

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: reading this around 630 and finished around 11. I did some

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: other things in there here and there. But this report is

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: jam packed full of information. And after you listen to this

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: interview, if you want to find out more, I'm going to put a link

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to the report in the show notes. It's about 52 pages long. And

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: again, full of really interesting information. Like

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: this report might spawn future special episodes because I was

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of I was kind of blown away by some of the things that

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: they talk about in the report. But again, I don't want to

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: spoil it. Before we get to the interview, I do want to ask

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: a favor. I've told you before about my new podcast Beyond the

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Post where we talk about all things digital creation from

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: social media to YouTube to podcasting and we're even going

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to have some authors and different types of writers on

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: in the coming seasons. Every year, the Daily Tech News show

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: goes on a week long hiatus. They give everybody in the

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: company a week off. And they allow other podcasts or other

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: shows to take over their feed. They have graciously allowed

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob and I to take over the Daily Tech News show feed on

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Thursday, August 22nd. And Rob and I prepared a special episode

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: for that DTNS feed takeover. And I would really

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate it if you went and listened, I'll put a link to

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Daily Tech News show in the show notes if you don't

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: already subscribed to that podcast, but I'd really

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate it if you listened to the episode. And then you gave

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Tom and the team over at Daily Tech News show your honest

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: feedback. It doesn't have to be good feedback. You can you

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: can give us negative feedback that's okay. But it would

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: really mean a lot to me if you listen to that particular

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: episode. And you gave Daily Tech News show some feedback on

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it. And their email address is feedback at Daily Tech News

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: show.com. So listen to the episode. Tell them what you

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: think it would really mean a lot to me if you did that. All

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: right, enough of my shameless self promotion. Let's welcome

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Paulina to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Earthworks did this very holistic report on

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: reducing the need for mining. Do you want to just kind of

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: give us a brief overview of what that report was and what

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the kind of goals for the report were?

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would love to. So this report is actually a report

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: that we at Earthworks commissioned from the

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: University of Technology Sydney from their Institute for

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Sustainable Futures, which we had worked with previously on

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: two reports in the past that focused mainly on battery

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: minerals recycling. And we commissioned this third report

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: because we felt like the conversation around the clean

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: energy transition around EVs, around the transition away

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: from fossil fuels was sort of based around two options. It

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: was either we stick to fossil fuels or we mine more in

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: order to transition to electric vehicles or EVs. And we

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: felt like there were quite a few third options or other

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: options that were being ignored, that would allow us to

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: both transition away from fossil fuels and also transition

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: away from a dependence on mining, which is also a very

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: harmful extractive industry. And so this report was a bit

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of our way to insert those other options into the

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: debate and into conversations and show that there are

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: ways that we can transition from fossil fuels while

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: also decreasing our dependence on mining.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think that's I think that's great when when I read

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: through this. And I admitted this earlier, I honestly

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: thought just based on the the title, I was like, Oh, this is

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be about, you know, more sustainable mining. And

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that is could not be further from the truth. There are a

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of options in the report that or they call them

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: principles that could help us reduce the need for instance

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: cars. So what's what will there's five principles? Let's

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: jump into the first one, which is reducing car dependence.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the ways the report outlined we could

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: reduce car dependence?

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, such a great question. I would say the report

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: focuses quite a bit on reducing car dependence in part

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's one of the biggest ways that we

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: could have a significant impact on mining demand. And so

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an important way to reduce mining demand. And a lot of

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the cases that are kind of highlighted under that

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: principle, like you said, there are five principles in

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the report. And that's the first one. Focus on

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: redesigning cities to encourage a shift from

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: personal or private vehicle use to public

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: transportation, walking and cycling. So putting the

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: infrastructure in so that people choose those options and

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so that those are viable options, right? I think

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: often, especially maybe from a more US centric

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: perspective, perspective, a lot of our cities don't

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: really have adequate infrastructure to encourage

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: people to use public transit to make it a

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: convenient option or to encourage people to walk or

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: bikes and still feel safe doing so. And so there are

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: infrastructure choices that cities can begin to

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: implement so that those are more feasible options for

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: people.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the thing that I got the most excited about and

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe I shouldn't have started with this because

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: this was honestly it lit me on fire this morning, 15

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: minute cities. Because when I was when I was reading

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: through it and I was like, well, how do you design a

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: city to, you know, cities can be massive. They can

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: be small, they can be massive. I live in Tempe,

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a part of the, you know, a small part of

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the greater Phoenix area. And we are a massive

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: metropolis from one end of the valley to the

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: other. It could take you 45 minutes to an

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: hour. And that's even if you're going from

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: populated place to populated place, if you

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: want to go a little bit more rural to rural,

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it could take more than an hour. So there's a lot

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of, there's a lot of people and a lot of cities

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: in between that. How do you take that and make

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: it into something that will want will make

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: people want to reduce their dependence on their

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: vehicle in 15 minute cities was the one of

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: the solutions in the report. Do you want to

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: talk a little bit about 15 minute cities?

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure. So 15 minute cities is an urban

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: design and kind of city planning concept that

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: focuses on the idea that sort of all of your

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: day to day typical needs or weekly needs are

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: within a 15 minute walk bicycle ride or

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: public transit ride from your home. So this

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: would include things like grocery stores and

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of the typical things that you might

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: need to run errands, banks, stuff like that.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Schools for families that have children,

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: green spaces and parks so that people can

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: can get outdoors. Having all of that within

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of a 15 minute radius around your home.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that you've seen

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: implemented in many cities in different regions

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: around the world, sometimes under different

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: names. You've seen it in places like Portland

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in the US, which has really been focused on

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to reduce car use by starting the

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: idea that they have a 20 minute neighborhood

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: plan. So the idea that you could get to

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: most of your daily needs by 2030 by walking

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or cycling and that falls into a 20 minute

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: time span. And then you also see it in places

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like Barcelona, which talks about super blocks

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: where you have everything kind of densely

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: concentrated. You've also seen it implemented

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: in Buenos Aires and Argentina as well as

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: in Melbourne, Australia. Some of them use

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: 15 minutes, some of them use 20 minutes.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's the idea that kind of

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: everything you need to be able to go

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: through your daily life is pretty closely

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: located to your home.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and what I also found fascinating

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: because you know, I don't know if you've ever

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: been to Phoenix, but it is a sprawl for

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: sure. One of the things I found

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: fascinating was is what they were doing in

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Bogota by giving a like a dedicated

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: center lane. The bus stops in the middle

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: of the road. There are pedestrian bridges

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that go across so nobody's you know,

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not worried about anybody getting

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: hit. But those dedicated lanes are for

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the electric buses. There's another program

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: in Auckland that they tried out where

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: they were basically doing like ride

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: hailing with minivans or some type of

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: passenger van. In Phoenix in particular,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this would be a fantastic solution

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because we have a lot of neighborhoods

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that are not exactly convenient to bus

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: stops, you know? We also, you know,

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it can take quite a while to travel by

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: bus to somewhere where it wouldn't take

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you nearly as long if you were driving

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: in your car or your ubering or whatever.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So this would be a good like kind of

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like a hybrid blend of getting you to

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: where you need to be, but also if you

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: have to make those longer trips by

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: bus, you know, you can use the

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: minivan ride hailing service, get to

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the bus stop and then get to your

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: destination in a relatively timely

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: manner versus, you know, walking.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We've had over 80 days of over 80

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: days of over 100 degree temperatures

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: here in Arizona. It's not it's not

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: practical or even humane to make

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: people walk the distance, even if it's

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: outside your neighborhood. Like it would

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: still be an eight or nine minute

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: walk for me just to walk to the bus

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in my neighborhood. So that would not

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: be a good solution for me to take to

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: work because I'm going to be sweaty

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: by the time I get to the bus stop.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I like these kind of thinking

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: outside the box solutions.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. I also think that

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: something that we talk about in this

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: report quite a bit and that we

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: look at it, Earthworks is

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that a lot of these solutions

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: actually create much more accessible

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: cities and

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: create an energy transition

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and an energy system where a lot more

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: people are accessing the benefits.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Something like telling people

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to buy electric vehicles. That's

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: something that only a pretty small

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: percentage of the population is going

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to afford.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And so only a small percentage of the

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: population might be benefiting from

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that type of proposed solution.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But with something like public transit

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and active transit options, which

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: include walking and biking,

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: often it makes it more accessible

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: like more people can economically

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: access that it can make the city

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot easier for people to navigate.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think something like the

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Auckland Transit model that you're

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: talking about, the sort of ride

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: hailing model that could get you

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: short distances makes public

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: transit a lot more accessible.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Like maybe you are unable to

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: walk long distances and so you can

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: use it. Maybe you're a family

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that has small children that can't

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: walk as far and it makes it so that

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: those people can also access

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: public transit and benefit from

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that type of infrastructure.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's shift over to

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: what the principle to which is

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: smaller EVs with smaller battery

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: packs.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So what's the benefit to

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: smaller EVs and

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: why should we want more small

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: EVs?

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is such a great

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: question.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the main thing

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: with smaller EVs is that smaller

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: EVs have a smaller battery,

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: which means that they have a

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: smaller mineral footprint

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or they require fewer minerals to

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: go into them.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Or you could say if you have a

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: certain mineral supply, you could

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: create more batteries from that same

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: mineral supply if they are smaller

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: rather than larger.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we talk a lot

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: about having

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: smaller vehicle size, smaller

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: vehicle batteries and we've

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: found that globally,

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: if we shifted towards smaller

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: vehicles or by we found the

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: report talks about from previous

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: research that it

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: could reduce the demand

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: for battery minerals

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: by up to 25 percent

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: in 2050.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So a pretty significant amount.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Another report that was done

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: by the

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: C plus CP, the Climate and

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Community Project in the US

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: found that

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you could reduce lithium

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: demand by

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was like

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: up to.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man, I'll have to find the exact

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: number.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think you could reduce it

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: by

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: 42 percent

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: if you went down to like

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the smallest vehicle size in the

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: US.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That was just for the US.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think in general, there is

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: a current trend towards

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: larger vehicles, especially in

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: a place like the US.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Over 80 percent of our

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: EV market at the moment

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: are SUVs.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: whereas in a lot of other regions,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: like in Europe and a lot of parts

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Eastern and Southeast Asia, you

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: get a much smaller vehicle sizes

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and we have these large vehicles

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in the US, but they don't actually

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: match our driving

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: distance. I think people often

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: want a larger

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: vehicle and a larger vehicle, EV

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: battery, so that they

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: can hold charge

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and drive for longer distances.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not really matching how we

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: actually use our cars.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, reducing our vehicle

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: size would be a pretty

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: simple way to one,

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: make electric vehicles a bit

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: cheaper and more accessible for a

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: wider range of people in the US

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and to reduce our mineral demand.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Ford recently said

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in an earnings call, Jim Farley, Ford

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: CEO said that they were going to start

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: building smaller EVs and they were

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: going to start being more intentional

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: about the size of their battery packs

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: because everybody over I did it.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I overbought on my battery pack.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, when you're spending

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, 40, 50, 60, 70

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: thousand dollars on a vehicle,

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't want to buy

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: something that you're like, oh, well,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: this is too, this battery

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: pack is too small and I can't do

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: what I wanted to do.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And Ford's research showed

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that most people are just over

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: buying on the battery pack.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So there needs to be better education

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in that regard.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But there also needs I don't know how

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: things are in Mexico as far

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: as EV infrastructure.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I would imagine Mexico City has

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: probably got tons.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But we also need a little bit better

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: charging infrastructure here.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: No, there's not tons.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, not tons.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's still a bit of a work

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in progress.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it kind of seems like

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: there's there's a lot that goes into

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: putting in a charging station.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So I would imagine that, you know,

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it's probably pretty similar countries

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: around the world as far as

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the amount of red tape that you have

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to go through and deals that need

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to be made to make that happen.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we still need to have

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit better charging

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: infrastructure. I think we're getting

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: there globally.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not just specifically talking

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: about the US because this is an

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: international show. But

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I am on board with this

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: for sure. The smaller cars,

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: smaller battery packs.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We just need to have better

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: charging infrastructure.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything else on smaller

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: cars that would, other than

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it makes it more affordable

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for everybody to own an EV?

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything else on that

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that I missed that we missed?

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so. Maybe I would

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: just also add that

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: because there are some countries

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: where there's a bit of that

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: resistance to smaller cars.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But even if, according to

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the IEA, the International

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Energy Agency, even if we

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: kept our battery sizes the same

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: as they are at the moment, the

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: same as they are today,

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of continuing to increase

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: our car and car

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: battery sizes, we would

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: still be able to

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: avoid a 16% increase

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: in our battery

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: metal and mineral demand

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: by 2030. So yeah, I

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely think it's a pretty

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: important solution to explore.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I am

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: happy to hear that Ford is

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: interested in providing smaller

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: EV vehicles on the US market

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think that's

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: important. I think, yes,

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe consumers are over buying,

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: but also if you're looking at a

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: global market where 60% of

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: EVs are SUVs,

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: it's also kind of pushing you

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in that direction, right?

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully they do

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: start to do that. I would love to see that.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to make Ford

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: make it into some altruistic decision.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It came down to money for sure.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like they can make way more profit

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: on a smaller car with a smaller

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: battery than they do on the bigger

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: cars with the bigger batteries.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And they even said that.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like I'm

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: talking out of school or anything

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like that. But yeah, I

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: want to say that

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere in the purport

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was either through car sharing

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: or it was through using electric

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: buses.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like you could

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: take nine. I think it was through

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: car sharing, like Uber or whatever,

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: or just like everybody rents

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a car and it's parked in a common

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: location. You could take like nine

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: vehicles off the road just for

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: have by just by having that option.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But I should have wrote that down.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's OK. Yeah, we I know that

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I think under principle three, we

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: looked a bit at

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: car sharing as an option.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's still a little bit

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: more research needed on exactly

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: what the impact is.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But there is the possibility

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: of car sharing, particularly

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: in a in a city.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if we begin to implement

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of these solutions in tandem,

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have a city where people can

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: reasonably or feasibly choose

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to opt for other

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: transportation options outside of

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: just owning their own car,

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: car sharing can be a good way to

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: supplement that when you do

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: decide that there are moments where

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you need a car. Right?

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's still a little

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: bit more research

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and for some of those cases,

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they are still a bit too

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: new to fully understand how

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that impacts car ownership.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there is potentially

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a chance for it to have an impact

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: on that.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it seems like from reading

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the report, it seems like none of

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the things talked about are

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: are things that are going to happen

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: tomorrow. You know, these are

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: things we're looking at 10 years,

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: 20 years, 30 years down the road,

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: especially when it comes to

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: manufacturing. We'll move on to

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that in a moment.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the things that

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that was interesting under

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Principle 3 was remanufacturing

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and repurposing EV batteries.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody talks about, you know,

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: when an EV battery goes

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: when it's time to be taken out

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of the vehicle, it can be repurposed

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: for renewable energy storage

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and all that stuff.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I had not

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: considered was most of the cells

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in that battery pack are still

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: good and they could that

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: battery pack could be refurbished

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: or remanufactured back

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to 100 percent by replacing some

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: cells.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: What what are the like

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: what are some of that?

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: want to be negative here because

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there are probably

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: some some downsides here.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about the upsides

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we'll talk about some of

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the downsides on that.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Of remanufacturing the battery

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: pack.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: remanufacturing is still

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a bit of a new

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: idea that's still sort of

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: being developed.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think in general, it kind

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: of aligns with some of the.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, a lot of the principles

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that you might see in the

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: e-waste or electronic space

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: waste space in general, where

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: they're looking at how can

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you repair

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of having to buy

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: something new, right?

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of extend the lifespan

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: of an object.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it kind of aligns

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: with those principles and is

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: looking into there.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: There's research looking into how

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that can be done in a way

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that is safe in order to sort of

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: extend the life cycle

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: or the lifespan of

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: EV batteries.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent. OK, so that brings us

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to principle four.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We have battery recycling.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We have advanced

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: recycling techniques.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: What I was really kind of blown

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: away by is I didn't realize

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that very little, if any, of the

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: lithium ion gets recycled.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. That surprised me actually

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very, very little

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: battery minerals get recycled

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: currently.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think also

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: going back to what you were

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: saying about refurbishment

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and repair and remanufacturing,

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: all of those same things that

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: make it kind of difficult

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to get into a battery cell and

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: battery packs and that can make

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it dangerous.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Also apply in recycling scenarios

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: like recycling can also be

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: very dangerous and depending

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: on the type of battery mineral

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: recycling that you're doing, there

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: can also be a lot of

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: environmental concerns

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that come with that

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and concerns for communities that

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: live near

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: battery recycling facilities.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, whenever

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: we talk about battery minerals

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: recycling, like we would definitely

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: love to see more recycling.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We would love to see more

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: research and innovation and

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: funding going towards

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: battery mineral recycling and

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to figure out how

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to build a battery in a way

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so that it can be safely

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: recycled. But we always want to

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: add that caveat that, you know,

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: there are a lot of sort of safety

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and environmental pollution concerns

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that need to be considered alongside

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: recycling. But I mean, there are

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: quite a few studies that have

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: emerged over the last few years that

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: show that you can have pretty

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: significant recovery rates

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: if if battery recycling

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: is prioritized.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so again, that would be a way to

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: decrease the need for new mining

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: or for the expansion of mining.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I always pronounce this

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: metallurgy.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Metallurgy, thank you.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And hydro metallurgy.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I was I was actually surprised.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like 80 or 90 percent,

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you could get back of the battery

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: materials through hydro

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's a it's you know, you don't

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: have quite as much in terms

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of the issues with

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the noxious fumes and things

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like that. You're still going to have,

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I would imagine you're going to have

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: wastewater that needs to be treated

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: somehow or stored somewhere that

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: can't get away from it.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There's there's caustic chemicals

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in the battery packs.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's more expensive.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not as it's not

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: normally used as as an option.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, there's not a lot of EV

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: batteries that are being recycled at

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the moment. So maybe

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it will become cheaper 10, 15 years

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: from now when we're out

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: when we're aging out some of these

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: vehicles. Yeah.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I would also add that like.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a lot about

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: battery EV battery design

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that is still

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: changing and evolving.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's a lot of research going

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: into EV battery design.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And so nothing I think is necessarily

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: set in stone.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: There are if we began

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: to think about design with

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: recycling in mind,

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: we could make it so that batteries

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: are easier and cheaper to recycle.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I think a lot of batteries on

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the market now aren't necessarily

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: being produced with that in mind

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: or aren't being designed with

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that in mind.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is why you get something

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like pyro metallurgy where they're

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like, we don't know how to take

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: this apart. And so we're just

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: going to kind of burn it and

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: try and see what we can recuperate

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: from it. Like that shows a process

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: where recycling was an afterthought.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And so then you get a form

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: of recycling that can be really

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: harmful, can be really toxic, like

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you mentioned.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And and doesn't even have as high

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of recovery rates.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I mean, I think

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's why I say sort of

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it is something that

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and sort of something that we talk

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: about a lot at Earthworks.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this report is that

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it's so important to

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: look at the whole EV supply

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: chain.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We focus a lot on mining, but

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: we know that we can't just focus

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: on that one point of extraction.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: There are all these other

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: decisions being made along

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: the supply chain that sort of

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: influence at different points.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And so decisions being made at

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the battery design stage are

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: influencing the sort of end

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: of life cycle stage where

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: potentially it's going to be

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: recycled or maybe not, depending

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: on how it was designed and how

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: easy it is to take it apart

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and how easy it is to recover

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the materials in that battery.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's kind of important

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to think about that full life

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: cycle in a bit more of a holistic

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: way.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the report also talks

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: about a really great example

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: of a Mercedes-Benz factory that

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: is still pretty new, but it has

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: been looking into battery

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: minerals recycling and has

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: reported

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: with hydro metallurgical

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: recycling processes that it can

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: recover up to 96

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: percent of some of the

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the key metals and minerals

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in the in the battery like

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: lithium and nickel and cobalt.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, that's a huge

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a huge number.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get let's get to

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: principal five, which I think is

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: probably more up your alley,

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: which is sourcing minerals

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: responsibly.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We we think about, you know,

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the the environmental

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: harms that happen when we

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: dig into the earth and we

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: get these minerals out.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But oftentimes we ignore

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the indigenous people that are

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of like there's never

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: a movie that's shot

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: from the point of view of

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the mining company.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the good guy and the

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: indigenous group or the group

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of people in a community that

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: they're the bad guys like that

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: never happens, right?

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So there are

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: protections in place.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are forceful, some

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of them not about mining

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: where indigenous people live.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's also labor

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: laws and it just kind of goes

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: on and on and on.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to steal

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: any of your thunder here

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: because I probably wouldn't

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: make it sound very smart.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So talk a little bit about,

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, mining

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: in indigenous communities and

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: making sure that laborers

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: are taken care of and feel

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: comfortable, you know,

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: coming forward when, you know,

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the bad things are being done.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think this is a really

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: important part of the report

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: while we really want to

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: focus on reducing

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: mineral demand.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We also recognize that there

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: are mines already up and running

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: for many of these metals and

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: minerals and also that

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: there will be some need for

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: mining.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we also want to think

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: about how can we do this in a

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: way where we're the most

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: protective of

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: fragile ecosystems

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and of communities?

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: With regards to indigenous

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: peoples, I think

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: this is not a new issue.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Indigenous peoples have

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: historically been

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: those most impacted by

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: mining and by many harmful

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: extractives industries.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, we see that

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: pattern continuing with

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the minerals that are being used

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: for energy transition

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: technologies.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: A study that was published in

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in the journal Nature and

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Sustainability showed

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that 54 percent of

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: transition mineral mines are

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: on or near indigenous peoples

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: territory.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So something that we talk

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: about a lot in at

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Earthworks and that's also

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: mentioned in the report is

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the need to implement free

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: prior and informed consent,

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: which means that no projects

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: move forward without the

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: consent of

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: the indigenous peoples that

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that territory belongs to.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think in general, this

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: is contributing

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: a push to sort of uphold

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and respect indigenous people's

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: sovereignty, right?

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Which has been trampled on

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in so many ways for so long,

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: including by the mining

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: industry.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's that's something that

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: we talk about a lot is F

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Pick, right? Or free prior

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and informed consent.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We also, yes, think a lot

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: about labor rights and how

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: can we make mining safe for

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: workers? I think that's so

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: important and making sure that

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: labor kind of has a seat at

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the table as we're talking

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: about transition mineral

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: mining is really important.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I think also

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really important to point

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: out that

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you just won't be able to achieve

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: clean energy with mining.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like mining is a very dirty

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: industry. And so if we are

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: proposing all of these solutions

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that require more mining, that's

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: actually not leading us towards

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: clean energy.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, mining has

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is honestly like kind of a bit

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of a waste management industry.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It creates a huge amount of

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what's called tailings or

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: mine waste, which is often

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: toxic waste that has to be

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: managed in perpetuity.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've also seen some

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: horrific, huge

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: scale accidents

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: or disasters

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: from from tailings dams

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and from tailings facilities

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: or mine waste facilities

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in 2019 there was

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a horrible

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: disaster that where the mine

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: company Vale, their

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: tailings facility failed

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in 272 people.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Many of them workers for

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the for the mine died

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: as a result.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was something that they

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: had been warned about

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: by structural engineers

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and didn't really act

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: on it.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think is another

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: thing to keep in mind is that

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the mining industry like

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: mineral extraction and processing

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: is responsible for about 17 percent

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: of greenhouse gases globally.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we're talking about

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: reducing our dependence on fossil

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: fuels, because we're concerned

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: about some of the climate impacts,

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really important to also look

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: at mining because it's also

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: creating a lot of a lot of climate

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: impacts. And and

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I think we often

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: look at these industries as if

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: they're two very different things,

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's very important to

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: recognize sort of the harmful

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: legacies that that mining has

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: left on a lot of ecosystems and

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: communities and think about how

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: to how to prevent those from

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: happening in new places or

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: how to sort of rectify those

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: situations.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, we kind of look at a few

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: different resources that we point

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to you that have

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: guidelines of regulations that can

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: be put into place to

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: attempt to protect ecosystems

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and communities from the harmful

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: impacts of mining.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And then you you touched

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: on this briefly, like, you know,

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: one once the once the mine has

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: given all it's got to give.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know enough about

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: environmental

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: mining and all this stuff to really

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe sound intelligent in this

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: regard. But there

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: there has to be a way not only

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: to manage all that stuff that

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the runoff and and make sure

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it doesn't get in the groundwater,

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but there has to be a way you're

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: just not going to leave a giant

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or you shouldn't just leave a

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: giant hole in the ground.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's got to be

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: something that that can be used

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: for that would

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: be beneficial to a community.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Like when you see

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: mining operations and they've got

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: this big giant hole in the middle

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: of a community, what are the

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: options? Or did they just leave

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it there? Like I genuinely don't

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: know.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately they do often

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of get left

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: there or there is

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, in theory at the end

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: of a mine operation, there should

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: be a whole closure

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: plan that is implemented

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: in order to safely close

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: a mine facility.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And this closure plan is something

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that should be

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: designed from

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the very beginning of

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: the mine project.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And often it doesn't exist.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, one of the

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: cases that we're currently

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: working on is is

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: a mine in Panama

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: where the mine has had its

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: contract revoked for a second

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: time by the Panamanian government

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: due to a lot of concerns about

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_00]: its management and just

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00]: concerns with the contract itself.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And now communities are sort of

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: worried because there is no

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: safe closure plan that's been

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: presented. And so they're left

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: with that exact question of like,

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, now we have this

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: mine that for a while

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: they've been sort of trying to

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_00]: speak up about some of the

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: concerns that they have about

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: contamination that they're

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: noticing in their water sources.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And there isn't a clear plan of

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: how that's going to be cleaned up

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and how it's going to be safely

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: closed, right?

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, in theory

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you would have that.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, it doesn't

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: always happen.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think another thing too is

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00]: with in particular with the

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, the push for for certain

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: minerals for clean energy

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: for stuff like rare earth elements

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: or REEs

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you see some people talking about

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: re mining, which is where you go

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: in and mine a closed

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: mine site and you mine the

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: tailings or the mine waste.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's because you are it is

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: now economically feasible to

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: extract

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: metals or minerals that previously

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: were not seen as economically

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: feasible and were left there

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: or because technology has

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: advanced. And so you're able to

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: work with something that has a

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: much lower ore grade.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But the issue with that is that

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: often these facilities aren't

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: safely closed.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you're kind of you can

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: be assuming a lot of risks by

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: entering into that type of

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: operation.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And also

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: they need to be regulated just

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: like any other mine site

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and often kind of slip through

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: regulatory loopholes and don't

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: aren't seen as a regular mining

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: operation. And so don't

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: fall under mining regulation or

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: code or law.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a again, a really

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: horrifying

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: tailings disaster that happened

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: at a re mining site

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in South Africa a few years

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: ago that kind of shows why

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that can be so dangerous.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So while I agree

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that in theory, you know, mining

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: companies should be entering into

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: operations with a safe closure

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: plan at the end that,

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately, is often not the

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: case.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, OK.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't like to end my shows.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I do often end them on a bummer.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to end it on a

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: bummer here.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's leave a nice positive

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling and everybody starts.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you hopeful for?

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you like what you're

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: seeing in the near future in

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: this space?

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I actually see this

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: report as quite a hopeful

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: report.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I didn't do a great job of

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: selling it that way.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, this report is

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: looking at these studies

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: from around the world,

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of different regions

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that have their own context and

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: governments and, you know,

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: different structures

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of come into play

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that are implementing solutions

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: to reduce

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: mineral demand already.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, I see that as a

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: big sign of hope that

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, these solutions are

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: out there.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The technology in many cases to

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: implement solutions to reduce

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: mineral demand is already out

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: there.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And really, it's just time for

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: politicians to kind of get on

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: board and fund those types of

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: solutions and programs

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and infrastructure.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So I see that as a big point

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: of hope, I think.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the other thing that

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I see as a big point of hope is.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're not

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to say that we are

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: against any kind of energy

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: transition or against a transition

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00]: away from fossil fuels.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: We're just saying we want to do

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: this in a way so that it is

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: equitable and just

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for as many people as possible.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I see that as a very, very

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: hopeful thing. I think, you know,

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: reducing mineral demand is sort

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: of one element of building

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00]: towards a more just

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and inclusive and equitable

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: energy transition, which for me

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: is is a point of hope.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I would agree with

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that. Paulina, thank you so much

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: for coming on the show and

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: sharing all of this information

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: with us. Where can people go

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and find out more about

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Earthworks? Yeah, of course.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: People can find out more about

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Earthworks on our

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: website, which is

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: earthworks.org.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They can also follow us

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: on social media.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a Twitter, which I

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: believe is also just

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Earthworks dot or just

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Earthworks on Twitter, as

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: well as an Instagram.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a good way to kind of

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: keep up to date about what is

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: happening there.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, thank you very much

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: for coming on. I appreciate it.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you so much.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Man, that was a good interview.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not the world

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that I live in.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I do consider myself

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to be environmentally conscious.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I care.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I do care about this stuff,

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but I am in no way, shape

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: or form an expert

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in any of these things.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the only thing that

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: really makes me qualified to

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about anything was

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the fact that I could afford

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a microphone and a computer

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to record this on.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But it gives me a lot of hope

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: for the future when there

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: are people out there like Paulina

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and the group that put this

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01]: together and the researchers

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: who took the time to write this

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: report that think

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_01]: about this kind of stuff.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, I don't know,

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: gives me a lot of hope

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: for the future.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you very much, Paulina,

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for coming on and being so

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: generous with your time.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I would also like to thank

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: William and Claire for taking

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: the time to set this up.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot to juggle for

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: setting up these interviews

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and William and Claire were just

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: fantastic.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you very much.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody, that is it

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01]: for me this episode.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Friday's episode is going to be

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: news and then next Tuesday's

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: episode we're going to cover

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Rivian's earnings call.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to email me, you can.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Bodhi B O D I E at

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: nine one eight digital dot com.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can also find me on Twitter

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: or X at nine one eight digital.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Hope you all have a wonderful

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: week and I will talk to you on Friday.