The 2025 Lead the Charge Leaderboard

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[00:00:40] Hello everyone and welcome to Kilowatt, a Podcast about electric vehicles, renewable energy, autonomous driving and much, much more. My name is Bodhi and I am your host and on today's episode I sat down with Vasile Nubei of Earthworks and Glenn Hurowitz of Mighty Earth. If you're not familiar with these two organizations, Earthworks is a nonprofit that's dedicated to protecting communities and the environment from the adverse impacts of mineral and energy

[00:01:06] development while promoting sustainable solutions. So just to sum that up, they go in and make sure that these mining operations and drilling operations are doing right by the communities and the environment that they're operating in. I think we can all agree that if somebody wanted to come in and drop a bunch of oil derricks in the area that we're living, we would want to make sure that we had a say in what they were up to and we would want to make sure that if this

[00:01:30] actually went through, that it's not going to poison our water or foul our crops or any of that kind of stuff. So it's really important what Earthworks is doing. And then along the same lines, we have Mighty Earth and they're a global advocacy group that's focused on protecting nature and the environment. All right. Now that we know who everybody is and what their organizations are about, let's talk about

[00:01:55] what we're actually going to discuss in this interview. And that is Lead the Charge. Lead the Charge is made up of a diverse group of organizations that are they're all working towards transforming auto supply chains to make them more equitable, sustainable and, you know, with any luck, fossil free. Um, that's, that's the overall goal. And what Lead the Charge does is they create this leaderboard,

[00:02:21] which evaluates 18 of the world's leading automakers on their efforts. Like I said, to eliminate emissions, environmental harms, and human rights violations from their supply chain. So each automaker receives a percentage score reflecting, you know, the proximity to the leaderboard's expectations of what, what the leaderboard is saying is truly a clean car. And again, these matrix are based on fossil free,

[00:02:46] environmentally sustainable supply chains, coupled with human rights and responsible sourcing. And on their website, which you can find at leadthecharge.org, they have the whole report and the report is 88 pages long, but it is very well done. And I found it to be formatted in a way that was easy for me to read and the information that they were trying to get across. So I would highly recommend going to their website and checking it out. But if you want to just go to their website

[00:03:13] and look at the leaderboard, you can do that as well. And we're going to get to the interview in just a second. I just want to go over one more thing. Uh, I'm just going to highlight the top performers in 2025, uh, on the leaderboard. So Tesla achieved a total score of 43% overall score, uh, on the leaderboard, which put them at number one. And I believe if I'm remembering this right, they jumped up, uh, from number three to number one this year, number three in 2024, number one in

[00:03:41] 2025. And then Ford is close behind Tesla. I believe they were number one last year. I'll have to check on that, but they got a total score of 42% and they excelled in human rights initiatives with a score of 52%. And then Mercedes comes in at number three with 41% and they demonstrated a balanced performance across all of their main categories. Again, the overall score of 43% or 42%

[00:04:09] or whatever these companies got is measured against what the groups in the leaderboard are measured against what the lead, the charge folks set as a truly clean car. And if you want to check out last year's episode, which I thought was a really good episode. I was very proud of it. I'll put a link in the show notes as well. All right. That is enough of me yakking. Let's go ahead and welcome Vasili Nubey

[00:04:36] and Glenn Hurwitz to the show. I'm just going to start off by asking you both to introduce yourself and talking about your organizations and kind of what you do within those organizations. So Vasili, we'll start with you. Thank you, Bodhi. And, um, very appreciative to be on your platform and to speak with your listeners. So I'm from an organization called Earthworks. Earthworks has over 30 years experience supporting communities on the frontline of mining, oil and gas extraction

[00:05:04] in the U.S. and around the world. Um, I'm specifically the lead corporate campaigner for our Making Clean Energy to Ingest and Income to Build initiative. And the aim of our initiative is to ensure that in as much as we have a just transition and we need to have a just transition, we also use this as an opportunity moment to make sure that our transition to a low carbon economy doesn't replicate the mistakes of the dirty fossil fuel energy and that we actually ensure that the

[00:05:33] rights of indigenous peoples and frontline communities are in this world. Perfect. And Glenn, how about you? Uh, yeah, I'm the founder and CEO of Mighty Earth, uh, which is a advocacy organization working to protect nature and climate. Um, we tackle the big issues that don't get enough attention, uh, within those. Uh, so things like, uh, protecting tropical rainforests and other ecosystems around the world,

[00:05:59] rewilding ecosystems and relevant to, I think what we're talking about today, uh, driving decarbonization, especially industrial decarbonization, things like steel, aluminum batteries, uh, which are the source of a quarter of global climate pollution. Uh, but until relatively recently have gotten very little attention, uh, despite their big impact on the atmosphere. And then, um, and either one of you can,

[00:06:22] can take this, but, uh, lead the charge was on last year. It's a, uh, uh, it's made up of a lot of different groups. Um, can somebody just kind of summarize for those who didn't listen to last year's podcast, what lead the charge is and what they do. Yes. So lead the charge is made up of, uh, a range of multi-issue, multi-region civil society organizations all over the world.

[00:06:48] And our aim is to come together and assess 18 of the world's largest water makers to see the extent to which they're moving towards having an equitable, sustainable, and 100% fossil fuel supply chain. So every year we evaluate what to make us commitments, policies, um, their progress and their actions on their supply chains. And we do this in terms of indicators on a fossil clean and environmental, uh, sustainable supply chain, and also related to their environmental and sea health.

[00:07:18] Based on, if we're comparing 23 and 24 to, you know, against each other, what are some of the biggest shifts or developments that you saw both good and bad? Cause obviously, you know, um, in 2023, no automaker got an overall score above 50%. And in 2024, no automaker got an overall score of above 50%. So what, what are some of those shifts that you saw, uh, for the positive and some of those shifts

[00:07:44] that weren't so good? Yes, I can jump in Jane. Um, I would say some of the largest, um, results that we've seen is that, um, some of the biggest performance improvements were in the general climate and human rights subsections. So we saw eight percentage points increase in that section, and we saw a five percentage, uh, point increase in responsible transition minerals. I think overall, um, you are correct in saying that the difference between last year and this year's

[00:08:14] iteration, um, isn't that much when we look at which automakers were able to get beyond 50% in both years, they were nine. I also think similar to last year, um, this year we saw indigenous people's rights also in prison. Okay. And then, um, when it comes to just kind of the leaderboard,

[00:08:38] when I'm, when I'm looking at the total scores here, uh, it looks like Tesla jumped up to, uh, number one, whereas, uh, Ford dropped down to number two and then Mercedes, uh, dropped down to number three. So, you know, there, there's a little bit of jostling. How much of that is, um, how do I say this? Like, are these big shifts that it take Tesla a lot to jump up in the overall

[00:09:04] by two spots or is, was that a minimal effort on their part? So, uh, you know, if I could jump in here, I think that, you know, more significant differences are between the top three and the bottom 10 maybe. Um, and that's probably where you see the biggest difference in terms of their impact on the climate, um, and, and human rights, et cetera.

[00:09:28] Um, so, you know, Tesla, uh, shares information about its, uh, the, the impact of its supply chain emissions, um, in a way that other companies have not yet, but we're encouraging them to do so. Um, and then, you know, they also have done things like on moved away from leather towards, um, just, uh, a, you know, a synthetic substance that, uh, feels good and, and, um, doesn't have the risk of

[00:09:55] deforestation. Um, I think also one of the things that it's really important to stress in this overall scorecard is the percentage of sales that are EVs to start with, because the benefits of moving from an internal combustion engine to an EV for the climate are in, in and of themselves enormous. You know, you're typically looking at least two thirds, um, benefit if, if not more, depending on

[00:10:21] the energy mix that goes into the, uh, electricity portfolio. So, um, obviously as a hundred percent clean energy company, that's, that's great. And that gives them a bit of an edge there. Um, interestingly, you know, at the flip side, you see some of these Chinese EV makers, which perform very poorly on the metrics, um, that we've established here in terms of, you know, where are their materials coming from? Are they produced using coal? Are they

[00:10:48] involved in egregious human rights abuse? Um, are they at all transparent about how they're doing business? And for the most part, the Chinese companies perform very poorly on that, even as they're selling hundreds of thousands or, you know, millions of, of electric vehicles. And that's a, a mix and a paradox. Um, and I think one of the reasons that this campaign exists is to bring attention to the impact of the materials that go into cars. Um, because this is one of the big

[00:11:17] opportunities for driving climate action. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, we, we focused on this issue, um, because looking at, okay, what is causing climate pollution? It's absolutely, uh, emissions from, uh, gas powered vehicles. It's, uh, coal and oil deforestation, you know, destroying rainforests and saying the smoke from that up into the atmosphere, all of those things. Yes. But it's also the materials that go into industrial products like cars, like steel, aluminum batteries,

[00:11:48] two thirds of, of global climate emissions, um, come from these heavy industrial products. And the auto industry has a major potential to drive change with them through their supply chain leverage. They are really valued customers. And that's why we focus so much on the auto industry, um, because they buy high value steel and aluminum. They're generally reliable customers. And so, yeah, it's a good thing to move to an electric vehicle period. Um, but if the coal is coming

[00:12:13] from, uh, excuse me, if the steel is coming from a source that is, uh, not shifting towards green, clean energy steel, or in the case of Hyundai, which we recently focused on, you know, using coal from Russia, um, that's something that we think they should change and address and do due diligence around because people want to know that like the cars that they are driving, even if they're electric and have a major climate benefit for doing that. And I can't emphasize that enough that they also want

[00:12:42] to know that it's like not made with Russian coal. It's financing the invasion of Ukraine that it's, um, you know, hopefully made using clean energy. And this is really important as we move towards a world where ultimately, you know, you're going to see much higher EV uptake and the, um, you know, we anticipate that, uh, by 2040, 60% of the, um, impact environmental impact of a car won't come from tailpipe emissions, but actually from the materials that go into manufacturing.

[00:13:13] So correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think like the, um, I was listening back to the, the, the episode last year and it's like the auto industry uses the most aluminum, aluminum out of any industry. If I, if I remember that right. And then they don't use the most amount of steel, but they use like the most amount of high quality steel. So when that's being processed,

[00:13:37] it's better to process that with, um, green hydrogen, which is broken from water and not broken from, uh, natural gas. Uh, do you want to talk a little bit about that? And I would imagine that there's a, there's a cost to that as well. I think Chinese auto manufacturers have a ridiculously low price point for a variety of different reasons. One of those reasons, uh, if, if you know what

[00:14:02] you're saying here is that they're using, uh, dirty steel, then, then it makes sense that, you know, a company like, um, a company that's using the green steel may have to pay a little bit more for that steel than a company that's not, that's using, you know, the steel that's processed with coal. Right. That's, that's absolutely correct. And that's our whole theory of change.

[00:14:26] You've, you've summarized it that, you know, the auto industry with steel, for instance, it is, uh, it buys these high value types of steel. They tend to be relatively reliable customers. And so that gives them a lot of leverage to move steel companies. Um, the steel companies care a lot about them as, as, as customers. And so if they are asking for low carbon steel, they're more likely to invest in it. And we've, we've seen that happen already. We've seen major

[00:14:53] steel companies commit to science-based decarbonization in part moved by GM, um, Tesla, Ford saying, you know, we want at least 10% of our steel to be green by such and such a date. And that creates a market incentive for steel companies to make, you know, some of the major investments. The thing is, this is not going to happen overnight. Like transforming the steel industry is a multi-decade challenge. And what we're trying to do is create an incentive by working with the

[00:15:22] auto companies for them to start those investments. Um, moving to green hydrogen requires investment. We hope governments could contribute to that as well. Um, but you know, this is mainly a job for the private sector that actually produces these materials. And that is, is what we are trying to spark. And we've already seen some results. So, um, the, in parts spurred by auto industry demand, you have seen green steel production go from the laboratory scale to a pilot scale to actually,

[00:15:51] now you have factories producing this stuff and being sold. We need to scale this up a hundred X or more, but it is, you know, as, as the scale has expanded, the cost of green steel comes down a lot. Um, I think with the Chinese auto companies, yes, in part, you know, China uses a hell of a lot of coal. Uh, and they, that's one of the reasons that they're, you know, don't, don't score that well, even if they have relatively high EV percentage sales. Um, and that's something that they need

[00:16:19] to address. And we hope that, you know, for the Chinese companies that see the United States and Europe as their emerging markets, um, which is maybe a flip of how we traditionally think about things, you know, people here to a significant extent care about the climate impact of these cars and they are going to want that. And so we hope that as they look to expand their markets, this, this kind of campaign and what they're hearing about from the auto industry drives them to change. I also would say that, you know, perhaps unsurprisingly, um, one of the issues with the

[00:16:48] Chinese companies relative to the other international European American Asian companies is that they're not as transparent about most of these issues. So it's been incredibly hard to get, um, information from them, uh, about, you know, where their steel aluminum batteries, leather, rubber comes from. And that's something that we're trying to work with them on and say, like, if you want, really want to be the market leader around the world, if you really, you know, want to build on the growth that you've had in the European market, you're going to have to share this information. And so that's

[00:17:17] one of the things that we're, we're asking them and hope consumers would ask them too. Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about the processing and Vasili, what about the extraction of these, uh, the, these, uh, not only the, the, the metals, but the, the minerals that we need for batteries and things like that? Yes. I mean, just adding on to what Dan has mentioned, bottles are the number one consumer

[00:17:43] of these battery minerals, and they are the dominant driver of transition minerals. Sometimes they're referred to as penny minerals or critical minerals. And so similar to what Dan described in terms of how water makers can be drivers of change when it comes to steel, we also view water makers as drivers of change in how battery minerals are aligned and the impact of those mines on communities.

[00:18:11] So there's a statistic about how the world, 54% of the world's transition minerals are on the way indigenous peoples land. And so how those transition minerals are mined, whether there is just, whether there is a decision to mine or not mine, um, relative to indigenous people's rights, um, I think it's a big question. And so we see water makers as being able to, um,

[00:18:36] um, lift their boats up specifically when it comes to the mining industries. Um, I think many of you the listeners will know that the mining industry, um, has a history of displacing communities with minerals of, of producing waters, of, um, resulting in environmental degradation. And so we really see water makers who need to this transition minerals as playing a key role in building the mining companies

[00:19:03] in their supply chain to this high standard of ensuring that when the minerals are mined, there is a responsibility for security. Similar to what Ben said, you know, we do need to have a transition. We do need to have more electric vehicles and public transportation out there. And just so that we can move away from the engine, but how we do this is never going to be able to see what you know this going on. Vasili, what are some of the ways that, uh, you know, if you want to just give me like two or three ways

[00:19:33] that automakers could ensure this, or even the, the miners themselves, what are some things that they could do to one, have a limited environmental impact or as limited as possible? Obviously you're digging into the ground and to not, uh, you know, upset the, the, the, or displace the indigenous people or, you know, basically force them to work for very low wages. Um, what are some of the things that they can do?

[00:19:59] Yes. I mean, I think the first step that we, um, that we assess all automakers on is on their level of commitment. So I think, unfortunately we are still seeing a trend where automakers don't have express and clear commitments to indigenous peoples or related to indigenous peoples, right? Um, for example, in this year's leaderboard, um, Ford is, um, one of only two automakers that expressly states

[00:20:25] that it respects the rights of indigenous peoples to be current and current consent. And so what we need from all the other automakers is to also make those express commitments related to everything. And what that does is it enables automakers to then trickle down those commitments to the rest of their supply chain and to cascade it down with their supply chains. So when suppliers are wanting to engage with the automakers, they understand that the way that they mine their minerals needs to be in full state of indigenous peoples, right?

[00:20:54] Another thing that automakers could do, and some of this, um, language is in the statement that was released by securing indigenous rights in the Community Coalition, they reacted to the leaderboard results. And one of the things they also recommend is implementing your vast due diligence processes. So what we're seeing, um, with the transition minerals or battery minerals, there's a lack of

[00:21:21] transparency. And so for lack of transparency about where these transition minerals are being aligned, um, it becomes harder for automakers to actually ensure that they are doing their due diligence and that they are able to make sure that where they are being aligned, there is the mitigation of environmental degradation or what's a commission. So yeah, I think those are key. Making the commitment, having transparency regarding your supply chain, and then also ensuring that you do

[00:21:48] your due diligence. Um, so where your minerals are online. And, and so transparency has come up a couple of times when, when you both have been talking, um, what are some of the ways? Cause you know, lead the charge can't twist anybody's arm to be more transparent. So I'm guessing there's gotta be like a carrot and a stick to this, right? Um,

[00:22:12] um, if BYD for instance, cares how they rank on this list, which I think they're, where are they? 16 out of 18. Um, the, the, the carrot would to be, to improve some of the things that the, that you were talking about in terms of, you know, uh, using clean steel, that kind of stuff. How do we, I don't know how to do

[00:22:38] the, how do we make the automakers more transparent? Like ultimately you would want to do this without some sort of active government. So how do we, how do we work with them? What's the carrot and what's the stick? Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say, look, and it would be great to have government require basic transparency in the same way that they, you know, ask companies to share their fuel efficiency

[00:23:05] performance. Um, some of the basics about the overall climate impact, you know, where, where are the materials come from? These are things consumers want to know. Um, and there have been moves in some countries to do that. Um, not as much momentum towards it in the United States at present. However, uh, I think you're, you're right. We don't need the government to necessarily do this. If companies are willing to share this information themselves, they get because they are in touch with their consumers. They're studying their consumers that people want to know, especially when you're making a

[00:23:34] big purchase, like a car that they are comfortable with how it's made. And a lot of, you know, for EV purchasers in particular, I think they, some people are concerned about the climate impact. They obviously want great performance too. Um, but you know, it's one of the benefits of driving EV is you can feel a little better about yourself, uh, as you're going to work or picking up your kits. Um, and across the board, across industries, we've found that whether it comes to transparency or actually just changing the

[00:24:03] way sourcing happens. Um, the companies are receptive sometimes under a bit of pressure. I'll give you an example of that, um, with an Asian auto company Hyundai. So we, they're, they're based in Korea, but they're one of their biggest markets is the United States. Um, and we brought some pressure on them around the fact that one of their aluminum suppliers was notoriously involved in like really egregious human rights abuses, uh, land grabbing, and was using massive amounts

[00:24:29] of coal. And, uh, we worked with this organization of K-pop, the Korean, uh, pop stars, um, bringing attention to this and how they thought this iconic Korean company could do better. Um, we went to the LA auto show and raised attention to it there. And in response, Hyundai actually, to its credit, um, stopped doing business with this particularly notorious company. So they, they showed responsiveness.

[00:24:55] We've seen Ford GM, many others that are reflected in this scorecard, not always be perfect, but improve in response to consumer demand, uh, to do so. And I think, you know, there is this trend that people want to know about the products that they're buying and they get that. And I think that's the fundamental driving force and organizations like, like earthworks, like mighty earth and other allies, you know, are maybe the pointy end of the spear when it comes to driving that and demanding it and talking to

[00:25:22] the executives about, okay, here's the information you need to request. Here's how you can get it. Here's some of the consultants or nonprofit organizations that can help you implement this across your supply chain so they can actually make it happen. Um, and, but you know, in a way it's almost surprising, like the degree to which transparency revolutions are possible. Um, and it's, you know, we're working on some of the, the, uh, outliers to get them to actually step up and do it themselves.

[00:25:51] So can we, can we go back to the K-pop folks helping you out? Um, is that, is that normal to apply? Cause I know K-pop in, uh, you know, obviously Hyundai is, is huge in, in Korea, you know, South Korea, it's where they, where they're based out of and K-pop also huge. Um, how, how do you reach out to those folks and be like, Hey, did you know this is happening? Like what, what's the process there? So, um, we've done a mighty earth has done a lot of work in Korea over many years.

[00:26:20] We have a lot of great allies there, but this group of K-pop for the planet, I think they work on a bunch of, uh, climate issues, nature issues, and they came together to be available. And I think we talked to them about the fact that, Hey, this is a significant issue. Hyundai has this outsized role. They're, you know, thankfully investing more in EVs. They're making some great cars, but unfortunately they are more involved in, uh, doing business with some bad suppliers than other

[00:26:46] companies. And it's an opportunity to drive change and use your presence in Korea, your fame there, uh, to drive a very concrete impact that it could actually have a global impact. So I think that was appealing to them. The fact that we laid out, Hey, it's not just, you know, one of many zillion things that companies don't do perfectly, but actually there's a real opportunity here to make a significant difference on this very compelling issue to move from cold to clean energy, stop human rights abuses. And they were enthusiastic about it. And I think the fact that they brought attention

[00:27:15] to it, um, you know, made Hyundai, uh, stand up. I also think what we did in the United States made them pay attention because the U S is such an important market for them. And again, you know, for many of the Asian companies, the U S Europe are their emerging markets. And so we try to build that kind of perfect storm of pressure. We also work with investors to talk to them about it. Investors

[00:27:39] who say, um, you know, sending lots of pollution into the atmosphere is a long-term risk, uh, for your market share. Um, and you know, I think all things being equal, these, these companies want to be seen as clean and ethical actors for their customers. Sure. Sure. And Vasili is, is, uh, earthworks working on anything in this regard when it comes

[00:28:05] to extraction or when it comes to just indigenous folks, uh, as, as a rule, like using, uh, I guess, celebrity, uh, to put pressure on, on companies is earthworks or any of the other organizations that you work with doing that? No, we haven't used that strategy, but I think from the way Glenn describes it, it's an incredibly, incredibly compelling strategy. Um, maybe also just to go back a bit to what you mentioned

[00:28:35] about what is the character and what is the stake when it comes to automakers improvements. And I think Glenn, if you've touched on this, but what we're also seeing when it comes to manufacturing minerals and transition minerals. Um, so similar to what Glenn mentioned, you know, you've got Asian companies, these Asian companies wanting to enter into the EU and because they're trying to increase their presence and their sales in the EU, they've sort of had, they've sort of faced the stick, which is like EU legislations. For example, the EU battery rates

[00:29:05] has the corporate sustainability due diligence director. We've seen those types of EU legislation that make it mandatory for, um, consumers, large consumers of transition minerals need to ensure that they also, um, recycle certain percentage of those minerals, incentivize East Asian automakers that are wanting to enter that market to make sure that they comply with the human rights standards

[00:29:31] related to transition minerals and also the recycling standards related to transition minerals. And so we've seen that sort of act as a stick when it comes to East Asian automakers entering the EU market. Um, and yeah, like Glenn mentioned, you know, in an ideal world, what you would have is mandatory human rights due diligence. You know, you would have a law that applies to all automakers regardless of where they are in the world. And that ensures that as only ends, you know, they,

[00:30:00] they take responsibility for their supply chains and that they're actually doing due diligence. So that really are entering the EU, um, as an automaker or one-on-enter an African country as an automaker. We don't have different standards. So that's some of the, for example, the switch that we are seeing that has, um, huge sum of automakers, particularly in the East Asian automakers.

[00:30:27] That kind of brings up, you know, I mentioned that, you know, we, we, we would rather these companies come in line under market pressures, but is there any recent policy or regulatory changes? And I'll, I'll ask this, uh, Vasili first, is there any, uh, recent policy or regularly, uh, basically new laws or guidelines that affect, uh, supply chains or clean energy incentives that you're, you, you would like to highlight because you know, the, the organizations

[00:30:56] are, are global. Yes. I can maybe just add a bit more about the speed of battery, um, legislation. So this was passed in 2022. And so what the law requires is that battery makers recover 90% of used nickel and cobalt and 50% of use that year by 2027. So already a lot of, of these big battery purchases are thinking towards 2027 and the amount of battery minerals that they will need to

[00:31:25] require from the supply chain so that they're not just mining these minerals endlessly, but they're also having to think about the recovery rates. And also by 2031, the EU battery registration, um, requires that these recovery rates rise to 95% for use nickel and cobalt and 80% for use to look at. So I think that's one, um, new law that has passed in the EU that we have seen to drive a lot

[00:31:52] movement. I mean, things have changed right now with the EU with the changing in how, um, the, with the change in like the political climate in the EU, um, they might be watering down of some of those legislations. Um, but our hope as civil society is that, you know, this type of legislation remains strong and then the role is passed, um, to sort of drive change.

[00:32:21] And how about in the, in the, you know, the steel and aluminum, um, space there, Glenn? Um, so the, a lot of the, um, safeguards may not come explicitly through environmental protections, but there are some environmental and human rights protections included in variety of trade agreements that the United States, uh, and other countries have entered into. Um, and so, you know, one of the

[00:32:49] issues that, that we work on is nickel that goes into batteries. And, um, also it actually goes into, uh, stainless steel, um, that is used in automobiles as well. Um, and, you know, it's, uh, nickel, um, has caused a lot of deforestation in countries like Indonesia. Um, and the refining of nickel, um, is currently huge amounts of coal are, are being used to drive that. And because of that,

[00:33:18] Indonesia is, um, one of the very few countries that's actually increasing its use of coal. Um, so it can drive nickel, um, refining. Uh, and that has been an obstacle to their getting access or preferential access to us markets, um, because of the climate, because of the human rights issues involved in that. There's a lot of like land grabbing and, you know, we saw this terrible

[00:33:42] video of, uh, one of the big nickel companies, um, invading a uncontacted tribe in the island of Sulawesi's land. And, uh, this, this, uh, member of the tribe, um, you know, seemingly trying to resist and then running away. And, and, you know, these mining and extractive projects can cause huge negative impacts on the frontier far away. Um, there are within trade variety of trade agreements that the United States and other countries have entered into policies that, um, at least don't provide

[00:34:12] preferential treatment under that. So we've worked with, um, different governments around the world to talk about some of these issues and make sure that they're paying attention to them, uh, as they enforce their trade policies. Yeah. I know in, it was, uh, I just looked it up here in 2020. I wanted to get the date, right. Um, some indigenous people in the Arctic part of Russia, they had, uh, actually

[00:34:34] reached out to Elon Musk because a nickel miner was just basically, you know, uh, laying waste to, to the, the land that they called home. And, um, so I know that this, this happens all too often all across the globe. Uh, I would hope that some of this stuff went in terms of, um, I guess,

[00:34:58] environmental protections and that kind of thing. It also kind of, um, also kind of like, hopefully like standard labor practices of making sure your, your people aren't exposed to, you know, carcinogens. And if they are, they have the right safety equipment. I'm hoping that, you know, we're doing, we're not using child labor. Some of those practices, like you said, in the, in the agreements and that we have trade agreements that we have with, with other folks that, uh, that kind of also

[00:35:26] helps. Um, I don't know how it sounds very cold and callous. I'm trying not to sound cold and callous. Uh, hopefully that, that helps lift everything else up. You know, uh, if, if there's laws on, on unsafe working conditions, hopefully that means they can't use a certain way that they're going to treat the metals or they're going to mine the batteries and that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's certainly our hope too. Um, so I want to say two things. One,

[00:35:54] uh, we should keep in mind, we see very similar, in some cases, even worse impacts from, uh, oil drilling. So the extent that you can drive electric vehicle adoption, um, it is helpful in terms of not only avoiding the climate pollution that oil, uh, causes, but also some of the devastation of wildlife habitat, pollution of local communities at the same time, things like nickel in particular,

[00:36:18] um, and sometimes cobalt, other, other minerals, uh, that go into making steel, um, aluminum coal mining, they're ugly. And, you know, I mentioned the impact we saw in Sulawesi, in the Arctic here at home in the United States, you also see sometimes these impacts of pollution. Um, and we need to mitigate that. I think one of the frustrating things for us is there are ways that you can dramatically mitigate it. So we've been meeting with a lot of the big mining companies and the auto

[00:36:46] companies to say, all right, you right now, some of the battery technology you're using involves nickel. Um, and we know that that's caused hundreds of thousands of acres of deforestation. I mean, I've flown over these areas and in Indonesia and what was once tropical rainforest teeming with orangutans is just replaced with this lifeless, uh, tailings piles. Um, and it pollutes the water and people can't drink it and the kids get poisoned and it's really ugly, but why, you know,

[00:37:14] we've mapped out and share this with the auto companies lands that don't have forests on them because they were previously degraded. Um, some of the areas that are most sensitive to water. So similarly, you know, I, I do think that there are new battery technologies coming online that have a significantly lower environmental impact than nickel. So we need to encourage adoption of those.

[00:37:37] Um, but I also would say that the mining companies historically, uh, are just kind of reckless and just go, you know, wherever they think the metal is without paying much attention to, um, you know, how it affects the community and whether the indigenous people there care. So in, in, uh, lithium in Nevada, like they just tried to, you know, um, say, okay, we, we were going to take this

[00:38:03] land. We're going to mine it. There's indigenous groups involved there. We need to, you know, U S lithium and other minerals, um, is needed to drive the electric vehicle transition. Uh, but I would say like a little more sensitivity, a little more listening to the communities about what they want, uh, would go a long way. And I think in some cases you'd find that in places where there's relatively low ecological impact, like potentially Nevada, there could be a more open-minded and cooperative way to get these minerals at scale. So we can drive the EV transition and the broader

[00:38:33] clean energy transition without, uh, egregious cost. And this is, you know, it's a thorny issue in the sense that there, there are trade-offs like shifting to EVs causes some impact. It reduces the impact of oil, which is even bigger. Um, but like a little sensitivity and openness, and that's what we're trying to push the mining companies, the other companies to do. Yeah. I think sensitivity goes a long way. Um, Vasily, do you have anything to add to that? Yes. I mean, just adding to what

[00:39:02] Ian mentioned, um, you know, him highlighting the mitigation measures, I think is crucial, but I think also in addition to those conversations, we also need to be having a discussion about circular economy or like reducing the amount of minerals that need to be mined. And again, it's about, you know, um, nickel that is nickel mining that is causing a lot of deforestation. And then we also see this with a range of transition minerals that are mined, that they have

[00:39:29] huge impact. And so we can have a conversation about mitigation, which is important, but we also need to have a discussion about how can we reduce our dependence on the transportation system. So how do we make sure that, you know, we have EVs and, um, no, we don't want a one-to-one switch from internal combustion engines to EVs. I think an ideal situation would be EVs and public

[00:39:55] transit system that a lot of working class and people can actually afford that is also, um, that is also, um, I think responsible. I mean, another point, um, that I'd also like to think about is just in terms of the United States specifically, um, there is a huge car dependency in the US and I think that is also driving a lot of risk requirements for transition minerals. So if the transportation

[00:40:22] system through policy, through spending shifts could also reduce car dependency, I think that would also aid in requiring less mining, less minerals, so we could transit, um, so we could have more equity, more respect for indigenous peoples' rights and more equitable, um, justice. So I think thinking about just circular economy, thinking about how in certain places we cannot mine because indigenous

[00:40:49] peoples live there, but in other places we can mine as Glenn highlighted. And once we have mine, once we have those minerals in the marketplace, how do we ensure we're increasing the recovery rates so that those, um, minerals are being recycled. So can automakers ensure that, um, at the end of life of a batch year, um, that is in their English. We are able to use it for other purposes and recover those minerals

[00:41:13] so that we can produce other products. So I think thinking more holistically, um, about how we can move away from mining as much, I think it's really, um, important just in terms of like policy and yeah, just ensuring that we have, more of that. Yeah, we're in a weird spot right now where, um, we potentially have a lot of these,

[00:41:39] these, uh, rare earth minerals and, um, the key minerals that go into the battery packs and things like that. We could potentially recycle them, but the batteries are lasting longer than we thought they would. So, um, that leads us at least for now and until either some changes on the way we own vehicles changes, uh, the, in, in the U S for sure changes on the way we have public transportation. Um,

[00:42:08] the, the, the, uh, the option going forward is, is to get the minerals out of the ground. Um, I would imagine in, you know, five, six years, uh, when we start really recycling the batteries, uh, of those earlier EVs, um, that's going to help on the impact. Does that sound right? Or are we going to still see the same amount of, uh, mining that we're seeing now?

[00:42:34] I mean, I think, so some of the pushback that we see, um, as Earthworks and just other organizations in this space is the question about, you know, let's say not having enough transition minerals, um, if we stop in the marketplace to begin these conversations in a circular economy. But our point is, you know, you can't build out, um, a circular economy. You can't think about recovering

[00:43:00] 10 years from now, 15 years from now, once these EVs have reached the end of life. This is something that needs to be built out now. The infrastructure needs to be built out now and funding for recovering and what's to be thought about now. And so I, I agree with you that depending on the type of mineral, you know, there might not be enough, let's say in the marketplace, because a lot of these transition minerals might not have been required in previous technologies. I know, I mean, steel has always

[00:43:28] been in water makers, but a lot of these batching minerals have not been required in the quantities that we are right now. But we still need to be thinking about the type of infrastructure that needs to be built to support internakers taking responsibility for the EVs and being able to recover when those car companies do their stay. And do you have anything to add on that, Glenn? Um, well, I think, I think that's all right. And I think, you know, we, we shouldn't forget,

[00:43:58] lose sight of transit as an option. It moves more people more efficiently, more cleanly. Um, but, you know, our, we do live in a car dependent society and a lot of other countries are too. And, um, I think the reality is what we need to happen for the climate is to have rapidly accelerating EV adoption. Uh, I'm concerned about potential for the rollback of the EV tax credits,

[00:44:23] or as you talked about in your podcast last week, um, the federal government now seem looking to rip out or, uh, decommission 8,000 vehicle chargers that they've already installed. Um, and so I want to scale the EV transition as fast as possible, also invest in transit a hundred percent to do that. We need, um, minerals. I think we do need to look at technologies that can reduce the requirements

[00:44:49] for minerals like better battery technologies. Um, and so I, I also look at like, how can we mine in a more responsible way? I don't think it costs that much. Or in fact, you know, we see often, um, when they pay a little more attention, they, they, uh, can drive better profitability. Uh, and that's what we're trying to communicate, but we need to scale up, uh, mineral availability, but we needed to, to do it without using more coal or causing more human rights abuse.

[00:45:17] Okay. So, uh, I got one more question for you and then I'll get you out of here. If, if all 18, if you had access to all 18 CEOs on this list and they were going to listen to one thing you had to say, and they were going to actually do it, um, and I'll start with Vasily. What one thing would you, what one piece of advice would you tell them, um, to do for 2025?

[00:45:42] I would say make explicit commitments to respect the rights of indigenous peoples and ensure that you implement the correct due diligence processes to make sure that you are preventing litigating and accounting for the violations of indigenous peoples in this world. And how about you, Glenn?

[00:46:05] Um, well, for 2025, I think I would say make a strong commitment to zero carbon, uh, sourcing, um, by for, you know, a hundred percent of your steel and aluminum, uh, for every year going forward to 2040. Um, I would also add that, um, given some of the overall, you know, attacks in the United States, especially on, um, electric vehicle adoption,

[00:46:34] given the enormous benefits that has to climate, uh, and environment, um, they should redouble their commitments to EV adoption and, uh, be loudly advocating with government to, uh, keep those incentives so that the United States can continue to compete in what I think is the great race of the 21st century, which is decarbonization. Um, you know, I was reading about how some of these

[00:47:03] Chinese auto companies took the lead, um, in producing auto companies and why they're getting such great access in, in European markets and elsewhere right now, other Asian markets. And it was because they worked together with government, um, taxi fleets, taxi drivers, individual drivers, truck fleets in a sort of somewhat coordinated way. Uh, and that, you know, it's, it's scary as an American to think that we are not even trying to compete now.

[00:47:33] We're going in the opposite direction and seemingly the government is driving a return to fossil fuels, to oil. Um, and with all of its attendant consequences and the rest of the country is leaping ahead, obviously that has negative impacts for the environment, but also just like on a basic competitiveness level, um, it's, it's troubling. And so I hope that one of the things we've seen is that no matter, even when government's not doing its job, the job still has to get done. The private

[00:47:59] sector is often best positioned to drive the changes that we need. And I hope that they can stand up and say, look, um, we need at least a basic infrastructure of support so we can continue to build out the EVs that we can compete as a country, that we can protect our climate, that we can not have our forests incinerated, uh, and people lose their homes. Um, and so that, that I think in the very immediate future is my big ask. Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you both for, for coming on and sharing with us.

[00:48:28] The, obviously people can go to lead the charge.com, uh, or.org, excuse me, lead the charge.org to, to look at the leaderboard and you can read the documents and you can even, uh, what, one of the neat things about the website is you can see the methodology and, um, how they put this all together. So I know we have a lot of really, uh, we have a lot of engineers, we have, we have some scientists, we have, um, folks out there who really like to dig into this stuff and you can look

[00:48:57] at it from a very high level, which is, you know, the, the, the graphs and things like that. And then you can go real deep. So go to lead the charge.org. And then, um, Vaseli, how would people find, uh, out what, uh, earthworks is doing and what you, what you're up to? Yes. So earthworks is part of a coalition called, uh, securing indigenous rights in the green economy.

[00:49:24] And if your listeners are interested in seeing some of Surge's statements related to this on the board and what our recommendations are, they can check out searchcoalition.org. And you can also check out earthworks is making clean energy clean campaign, um, just to get a sense of the work that we do. The engagements we have, the quarter makers, what was the purpose of the lives, the communities and find my own relatives and others at earthworks.com. And how about you, Glenn?

[00:49:54] Yeah. Uh, we're mighty earth.org, uh, and welcome people's input on the scorecard and our other work. And if people want to reach out to me, um, I post on LinkedIn, my name is Glenn Hurwitz, uh, and you can find me there and, you know, welcome hearing from people about how they can get involved or any other questions they have. Excellent. Thank you both for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Great podcast. Love it. No, thank you.

[00:50:22] All right. I want to thank Vasily Nube and Glenn Hurwitz for coming on and being so generous with their time. I thought it was a really good interview and, uh, they both have an open invitation to come on the show whenever they want. I also want to thank William for facilitating this interview. I've worked with William a few times now and he is always very professional and he makes things super easy on me. So thank you, William, for setting this all up. All right, everybody,

[00:50:48] that is it for me on this episode. Next week, we are going to hear from Bart Bouchotts. And if you remember right, Bart's come on several times over the last different vehicles that he tested on his journey to find a new car. One of my favorite things, like I always love having Bart on. Bart's a great guest, good friend, love Bart. But one of the things that I get the most amount of joy of is Bart lives in

[00:51:13] this cool little community in Ireland. And I get to watch in some, in some cases, not in every case, but depending on the year, but I get to watch the sun go down because, uh, Ireland's like eight or nine hours ahead of us. So when we do these, these interviews, you know, uh, it starts off in the sun and then the next thing you know, uh, it's now dark and I get, I get to watch, I get to see that sunset in

[00:51:37] Ireland. So, uh, it's kind of a cool thing for me, uh, just behind the scenes there again, thank you to Vasily. Thank you to Glenn and thank you to William for coming on and, and being so generous with their time. Make sure to go and check out mighty earth.org earthworks.org and lead the charge.org. And I'll make sure to put links in the show notes. Thanks for hanging out. And I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.