Zoox's CTO throws shade at Tesla's FSD

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[00:00:31] Natürlich kannst du Proplan Forti Flora auch präventiv oder bei alltäglichen Verdauungsbeschwerden einsetzen. Es unterstützt auch bei Ernährungsumstellungen oder Antibiotika-Einnahme. Purina Proplan Forti Flora – jetzt auf shop.purina.de

[00:00:46] Hello everyone and welcome to Kilowatt, a podcast about electric vehicles, renewable energy, autonomous driving and much, much more. My name is Bodhi and I am your host and on today's episode we have news. Not sure why I said that so weird.

[00:01:24] But before we get into our news, we have patrons to thank. So I'm going to do it by alphabetical order this time. So we'll start with Alex, Alkebob, Brad, Brian, Bruce C, Bruce W, Cameron, Charles F, Charles S, Chip – by the way, huge congratulations to Chip on retiring.

[00:01:49] Chris with the middle initial SB – Chris B, and Christopher. Maybe this wasn't the best idea, but we're going to do it anyway.

[00:02:01] We're doing alphabetical order. That's how we're doing it this month. So I would also like to take a moment to thank those who support us on ACAS+.

[00:02:11] Now here's the thing. With ACAS+, I don't actually get your name. I do get your email address, but I don't get your name.

[00:02:17] So I'm going to do my best based on your email address. We'll start off with Ravi, Sean, Geohull, Analytical Agnostic.

[00:02:25] And that is it, unless you include me, because I support myself on Patreon and ACAS+, just to see what that all looks like.

[00:02:35] Yes, I pay myself a dollar and then lose money because the dollar goes to those fees.

[00:02:40] Anyway, what I'm saying is I'm not asking anybody else to do something I'm not already doing.

[00:02:45] But thank you, everybody, whether you went to ACAS+, to sign up, or you went to patreon.com forward slash kilowatt.

[00:02:52] I really do appreciate you doing that and supporting the show.

[00:02:56] And again, all of the money goes back into the show, which at the moment, that money is going to pay for me to go to CES for two days.

[00:03:06] Just to give you an idea, CES for two days hotel was about $750, $780.

[00:03:13] They get you with the fees and the resort fees.

[00:03:16] And then I'm expecting to spend another $300 to $400 on food and just getting there, which I'm just going to drive my electric car there.

[00:03:23] So that shouldn't be terrible, but food isn't necessarily cheap.

[00:03:27] And I don't really drink, so it's really the food that's going to get you.

[00:03:30] But a huge thanks to everybody who's making this trip possible so that I can report on EV stuff coming out of CES.

[00:03:38] And my hope is that they'll have Scout Motors.

[00:03:42] They'll have those vehicles there showing them off so I can at least take a look.

[00:03:46] Maybe they won't have test drives, but maybe I can crawl around the inside of one of those bad chickens.

[00:03:52] All right, let's go ahead and get to our EV news.

[00:03:55] And I have good EV news.

[00:03:57] If you are a Costco member and you're looking to buy an EV, you could save up to $2,000 off an EV.

[00:04:05] Now, remember when I go through this, I said up to.

[00:04:09] And really, there's only one EV where you're going to save $2,000.

[00:04:14] But you will save $1,000 off the following vehicles, whether they're 2024 model years or 2025.

[00:04:21] The Chevy Silverado EV, Equinox EV, and Blazer EV.

[00:04:25] If you're in the market for one of those vehicles, you're going to get $1,000 off.

[00:04:29] If you're looking at the GMC Sierra pickup truck or the Hummer EV pickup truck or SUV, you're going to get $1,000 off those vehicles.

[00:04:38] If you're looking for a Cadillac Lyric, again, $1,000 off.

[00:04:42] There is a scenario where you could get $2,000 off these vehicles if you are military, either current or former.

[00:04:50] And you can prove that.

[00:04:51] You'll get an extra $1,000 off those vehicles with the military discount over the Veterans Day weekend.

[00:04:58] Let's go ahead and move on to Volvo.

[00:05:01] You'll get $1,000 off the Volvo C40 or XC40.

[00:05:07] And then Polestar.

[00:05:09] Now, this is the one vehicle you're going to get $2,000 off of.

[00:05:12] The Polestar 3 SUV, which recently Polestar delivered their first Polestar 3 from its South Carolina plant.

[00:05:21] So Polestar being aggressive with the Costco incentives here.

[00:05:27] So you get an extra $2,000 off that vehicle.

[00:05:30] Most, if not all, of these vehicles, I didn't really check, but most, if not all, qualify for the $7,500 federal tax credit if you're buying it here in the United States.

[00:05:38] And then you also have whatever state and local incentives you have available to you, depending on where you live.

[00:05:45] So not too shabby.

[00:05:47] Moving on to Ford.

[00:05:49] They are not giving you big discounts at Costco.

[00:05:53] They are pausing production of the F-150 Lightning in mid-November.

[00:05:57] So November 15th, I believe it is.

[00:06:00] The reason why is because the slower than expected demand.

[00:06:04] The production will pause for nearly two months.

[00:06:06] Ford recently cut the workforce at this particular plant.

[00:06:10] Fortunately, no one lost their job in these cuts.

[00:06:13] Another 700 people were offered a choice.

[00:06:16] They could either retire with an early retirement package or whatever Ford was offering them.

[00:06:22] Or they could go and work on the Bronco and Ranger lines at a different plant, which I believe is where the first 700 people workers were transferred to.

[00:06:34] So before all this happened, this particular plant had three shifts working and now they are down to one.

[00:06:41] Just for a point of reference, Ford sold a total of 7,162 Lightnings in Q3 of 2023 or 2024.

[00:06:50] Excuse me.

[00:06:51] Their competition, which includes the Tesla Cybertruck, they sold 16,692 in Q3 according to Electric.

[00:07:01] You got the Chevy Silverado EV, which is doing well.

[00:07:05] I don't know that the numbers on that have been released or at least I haven't seen them.

[00:07:09] Dodge is either preparing or just now shipping.

[00:07:13] They're real close either way, one way or the other.

[00:07:15] Their new EV pickup truck.

[00:07:17] And then you have all of the other trucks in the world that are internal combustion engines that exist.

[00:07:23] So yeah, that's tough times for Ford in the F-150 Lightning.

[00:07:30] By the way, Ford sold 23,509 EVs in Q3 2024.

[00:07:37] For reference, GM sold 32,095 vehicles or EVs during the same time period.

[00:07:44] And so far this year, Ford has sold 67,689,000 EVs, whereas GM has sold 70,450 EVs.

[00:07:56] All right.

[00:07:56] So that sounds not bleak, but it doesn't sound like that's good news for Ford.

[00:08:01] I do have a little silver lining here.

[00:08:04] And I don't even know if it's technically a silver lining.

[00:08:06] It just might be a light in the distance that Ford's going to.

[00:08:10] Ford has started their LFP battery production.

[00:08:14] Which should help them lower costs because LFP batteries are cheaper to make.

[00:08:18] They're less energy dense, but they're more robust.

[00:08:21] If you don't know what LFP means, it's lithium iron phosphate batteries.

[00:08:26] That is certainly good news, but it's not going to help them in the short term.

[00:08:30] Because again, they're expected to start actually delivering those on vehicles sometime in 2026.

[00:08:38] Moving on to autonomous driving.

[00:08:43] Zooks, an autonomous driving startup, which I guess they're technically owned by Amazon now.

[00:08:49] So I guess they're not quite a startup.

[00:08:51] But anyway, they offered this really cool autonomous pod.

[00:08:55] It's four seats.

[00:08:56] There's no steering wheel, no pedals or drivers for that matter.

[00:08:59] They are currently testing in San Francisco, Las Vegas, Seattle, Austin, and Miami.

[00:09:06] I will definitely make sure if I can to check them out when I go to Vegas in January.

[00:09:11] But that's not why Zooks is in the news.

[00:09:15] Zooks chief technology officer was at TechCrunch Disrupt 2024.

[00:09:20] And he had this to say about Tesla.

[00:09:24] The fundamental issue is they don't have technology that works.

[00:09:28] And by work, I want to differentiate between a driver assistance system that drives most of the time,

[00:09:35] except when it doesn't, and then you have to take over,

[00:09:38] versus a system that's so reliable and robust that you don't need a person in it.

[00:09:44] Also, our perspective is you really do need significantly more hardware

[00:09:48] than Tesla is putting in their vehicles to build a robo-taxi

[00:09:51] that is not just as safe, but as especially safer than a human.

[00:09:56] So I don't know much about this Zooks company,

[00:09:59] but I would imagine that in the cities that they operate,

[00:10:02] they are allowed to operate within a very narrow corridor, right?

[00:10:10] They can't just go all over the city.

[00:10:13] They're going to be able to operate in this very well-defined area,

[00:10:16] just like Waymo and GM Cruise and that kind of thing.

[00:10:19] So what Tesla's doing is quite a bit harder than what Zooks is doing.

[00:10:24] Now, some could argue, and you might be right,

[00:10:27] that Zooks and Waymo and GM Cruise, they're doing it the better way.

[00:10:31] They're starting at a much smaller scale,

[00:10:33] and then they have to ramp up as they can prove to regulators

[00:10:39] that their technology works and it's safe.

[00:10:43] And Tesla does something different.

[00:10:45] Anyway, Elon must have saw these comments and was not a fan

[00:10:49] because he responded with the following.

[00:10:52] Now, I should actually say before I give Elon's comments,

[00:10:56] the CTO, his name is Jesse Levinson,

[00:11:00] just adding a little context because this is what Elon had to say.

[00:11:03] If he hadn't gotten bailed out by Amazon,

[00:11:05] his company would be dead already.

[00:11:08] That's what Elon said, which is interesting.

[00:11:10] So both of these people have comments

[00:11:14] that I believe are not necessarily fair to the other company, right?

[00:11:20] Let's take Jesse's comments, for instance.

[00:11:23] What Tesla is doing is significantly harder than what Zooks is doing

[00:11:29] because Tesla is operating in a bunch of different environments.

[00:11:33] And Zooks, again, like I said, they have this narrow fenced-off area,

[00:11:39] geo-fenced-off area that they have to operate in.

[00:11:41] Now, does that mean that what each of these companies is doing is not amazing?

[00:11:47] No, they're both pretty amazing.

[00:11:49] They both have different ways that they're looking at tackling this problem.

[00:11:53] And by the way, when Tesla gets to the point of going and seeking regulatory authority

[00:11:59] to operate driverless taxis, they're going to have to figure this out as well.

[00:12:03] They're going to be geofenced.

[00:12:05] They're going to have to follow a bunch of rules,

[00:12:06] just like these other companies are.

[00:12:08] And Elon's going to see this as being handcuffed.

[00:12:11] So just to be fair to Tesla,

[00:12:14] what they're doing is probably harder than what Zooks is doing at the moment.

[00:12:18] But having said that,

[00:12:20] I don't necessarily think Jesse Levinson's comments were incorrect either, by the way.

[00:12:27] But yeah, so then Elon, like I said,

[00:12:32] he talked about Zooks being bailed out by Amazon,

[00:12:36] which is a little rich because in 2009,

[00:12:38] Tesla released this really cool press release

[00:12:41] announcing that Daimler AG took a 10%, around a 10% stake in Tesla.

[00:12:47] And the two companies were going to work on battery systems,

[00:12:51] electric drive systems, and vehicle projects together.

[00:12:54] So this initial investment was just $50 million, not much.

[00:12:58] In 2009, it was probably a hefty sum.

[00:13:01] It kept Tesla afloat.

[00:13:02] Somebody came in, created a partnership deal with Tesla,

[00:13:07] and guess what?

[00:13:08] That helped keep Tesla afloat, that $50 million investment.

[00:13:12] So it's not as if Tesla's never been bailed out before by other companies.

[00:13:17] They had some agreements with Toyota,

[00:13:19] and I'm sure that money exchanged hands there as well.

[00:13:24] But yeah, this is a $50 million investment.

[00:13:27] By the way, that $50 million investment,

[00:13:30] Daimler AG sold their stake,

[00:13:32] and they pocketed $780 million from that $50 million investment.

[00:13:41] So not too shabby.

[00:13:43] So it was definitely something that benefited Tesla,

[00:13:47] but it really benefited Daimler AG for sure.

[00:13:51] That's a nice return.

[00:13:55] Okie doke.

[00:13:56] That wraps up our EV news.

[00:13:58] Let's move on to our Tesla news.

[00:14:01] And this is just, I'm just going to say this real quick,

[00:14:03] because I can't remember if I mentioned this yet or not,

[00:14:06] but Volvo and Polestar owners now have access to the supercharger network.

[00:14:10] I don't think Volvo or Polestar is giving current owners

[00:14:15] the adapters needed to charge on the supercharger network.

[00:14:20] You got to pay for that out of your own pocket,

[00:14:22] and that's like $250, $300, something like that.

[00:14:25] But still, if you wanted to do such a thing, you could.

[00:14:30] Tesla has a new test drive program in Europe and the Middle East.

[00:14:35] So this came from Tesla's Europe and Middle East X page or Twitter page.

[00:14:42] So basically, the tweet goes like this, or the post goes like this.

[00:14:47] Drive a Tesla, talk to no one.

[00:14:49] Locate and unlock a vehicle near you for a test drive entirely in the Tesla app.

[00:14:54] Then it has a 44-second video.

[00:14:56] The video starts off with someone on their phone, and they're scheduling a test drive.

[00:15:01] And then it shows a bunch of Teslas in different vehicle locations.

[00:15:04] And then it shows people walking up to the cars,

[00:15:06] just opening it up and taking them for a test drive.

[00:15:09] And it looks like they're genuinely having fun.

[00:15:12] And then it shows the car being returned,

[00:15:15] which honestly is probably the most important part of a test drive,

[00:15:18] because otherwise it's Grand Theft Auto.

[00:15:19] So it's nice that Tesla completed the legal circle in the video.

[00:15:25] But I think this is a great way to offer test drives.

[00:15:28] And honestly, I think more companies should look into doing this.

[00:15:31] Like they have to have the right infrastructure set up.

[00:15:33] Tesla isn't uniquely set up to do this.

[00:15:37] Other companies can do it.

[00:15:38] Probably Rivian and some other Polestar.

[00:15:40] But this is really cool.

[00:15:42] I don't want to have a conversation with somebody.

[00:15:43] I don't want somebody to try and sell me a car.

[00:15:45] I want to be able to take the car for a test drive,

[00:15:48] schedule my time, take the car for a test drive, and then be done.

[00:15:51] I don't want the whole interaction of,

[00:15:54] what did you do before this?

[00:15:55] Oh, interesting.

[00:15:56] Tell me how working at Verizon was.

[00:15:58] Because for whatever reason,

[00:15:59] every time I talk to somebody that works for Tesla sales,

[00:16:02] previously they worked at Verizon.

[00:16:03] At least here in Arizona,

[00:16:04] it is a very big pipeline for Tesla employees,

[00:16:09] Verizon cell phone sales.

[00:16:12] Anyway, I didn't know this,

[00:16:14] but Tesla did offer a similar program in the United States,

[00:16:17] but it was only in select states.

[00:16:19] So if you were one of the folks that had access to this,

[00:16:24] let me know what your experience was.

[00:16:25] Bodie, B-O-D-I-E at 918digital.com.

[00:16:30] All right.

[00:16:31] Let's move on to our final Tesla story.

[00:16:36] Business Insider interviewed some of Tesla's former internal self-driving team,

[00:16:44] like their test team.

[00:16:45] And the name for this project was Project Rodeo,

[00:16:51] which makes sense when you consider that the people testing this software

[00:16:55] were pushing it to the limits.

[00:16:57] And I guess it's software and hardware,

[00:16:59] but I'll just say software for now to make it easy.

[00:17:02] You know, they,

[00:17:03] and we'll hear an excerpt from the article here in just a second,

[00:17:06] but they would go out and let the car do things that they knew would hurt them

[00:17:14] or could possibly hurt them

[00:17:16] and wait to the last possible minute to intervene to see what the car would do.

[00:17:21] So here's an excerpt from the article.

[00:17:23] Test drivers said they sometimes navigated perilous scenarios,

[00:17:27] particularly those drivers on Project Rodeo's critical intervention team,

[00:17:31] who say they're trained to wait as long as possible before taking over the car's controls.

[00:17:37] Tesla engineers say there's a reason for this.

[00:17:40] The longer the car continues to drive itself,

[00:17:43] the more data they have to work with.

[00:17:46] Experts in self-driving tech and safety say this type of approach could speed up the software's development,

[00:17:52] but risks the safety of the test drivers and people on public roads.

[00:17:56] One driver described the experience just like riding a bull,

[00:18:01] which is apt because it's called rodeo.

[00:18:03] But yeah, they're just trying to hang on for as long as they can.

[00:18:06] So when you and I are out driving our vehicle,

[00:18:11] anytime we feel uncomfortable,

[00:18:13] we could just intervene and reset the car

[00:18:16] and either we don't turn it back on again

[00:18:19] or we, you know, reset the car and then turn it back on again

[00:18:23] and move about our day, right?

[00:18:24] These drivers are trained to let it go much further than you and I would.

[00:18:30] Let's put it that way.

[00:18:32] One driver had this to say,

[00:18:34] you're pretty much running on adrenaline the entire eight-hour shift.

[00:18:38] There's this feeling that you're on the edge of something,

[00:18:41] of something going seriously wrong.

[00:18:43] It's not funny, but I get that.

[00:18:46] Here's another excerpt from the article.

[00:18:48] Critical intervention test drivers who are among Project Rodeo's most experienced

[00:18:53] let the software continue driving even after it makes a mistake.

[00:18:57] They're trained to stage interventions,

[00:19:00] taking manual control of the car

[00:19:02] only to prevent a crash,

[00:19:04] said the three critical intervention drivers

[00:19:06] and five other drivers familiar with the team's mission.

[00:19:10] Drivers on the team and internal documents

[00:19:12] say that cars rolled through red lights,

[00:19:15] swerved into other lanes,

[00:19:17] or failed to follow posted speed limits while FSD was engaged.

[00:19:21] The drivers said they allowed FSD to remain in control

[00:19:24] during these incidents

[00:19:25] because supervisors encouraged them to try to avoid taking over.

[00:19:29] If this is true, that is absolutely terrifying.

[00:19:33] And I can empathize with somebody

[00:19:36] who is running on that much adrenaline for eight hours.

[00:19:40] Like, that's going to take you several hours

[00:19:42] just to come down and relax

[00:19:44] and let your brain breathe, for sure.

[00:19:47] So my question to you is,

[00:19:50] is this something that you would participate in?

[00:19:53] Like, if your town had this program for Tesla

[00:19:57] or any other company, it doesn't have to be Tesla,

[00:19:59] would this be something you would feel comfortable doing?

[00:20:02] Another question would be,

[00:20:03] is do you feel comfortable

[00:20:07] with automakers testing in this way on public streets?

[00:20:12] Like, is this something that you would like to happen?

[00:20:15] Is this something that you knew was happening?

[00:20:16] I think we all knew on some level

[00:20:19] Tesla's testing this software on public streets.

[00:20:24] Now, what I didn't quite realize,

[00:20:27] and maybe I should have

[00:20:27] because I've been doing this podcast for eight years,

[00:20:30] what I didn't realize was that

[00:20:32] they were letting it get this far.

[00:20:35] And listen, this is a Business Insider report.

[00:20:38] I'm going to say that it does seem like

[00:20:42] Business Insider has a bias against Tesla.

[00:20:44] They write plenty of negative stories about Tesla.

[00:20:48] Some of them valid.

[00:20:50] Some of them I don't think are always valid,

[00:20:52] but take that for what it's worth.

[00:20:54] But if this is in fact happening on public roads,

[00:20:59] this kind of testing,

[00:21:01] how does it make you feel?

[00:21:02] It doesn't make me feel great,

[00:21:03] if I'm being honest with you.

[00:21:05] Like, on some level,

[00:21:06] I realize that these companies need data,

[00:21:11] and the best way to get data is let the cars go.

[00:21:15] But the first time that ends up in a fatality,

[00:21:19] that's not going to be good PR for your company.

[00:21:22] That's not going to be good legally

[00:21:23] and financially for your company.

[00:21:25] You're going to get sued.

[00:21:26] You're going to lose,

[00:21:27] especially if this is something that's widespread.

[00:21:31] And, you know,

[00:21:32] Tesla's supervisors are encouraging this kind of thing.

[00:21:35] I don't think that's a good idea.

[00:21:37] I will say, a long time ago,

[00:21:39] I worked for a company

[00:21:41] that did one of the first databases

[00:21:45] for automakers

[00:21:46] and, like, their parts and stuff like that.

[00:21:49] And this was, like, in maybe 2000.

[00:21:53] I don't know if it was one of the first.

[00:21:56] Our software that we had

[00:22:00] from, you know,

[00:22:01] talking to the engineers that worked on it,

[00:22:02] they seemed to think it was

[00:22:05] the most advanced software that was out there, right?

[00:22:08] Ran on Windows,

[00:22:10] which was huge at the time.

[00:22:14] So, anyway,

[00:22:15] when I was talking to one of the engineers,

[00:22:19] he was, you know,

[00:22:20] recounting the story that he had been told.

[00:22:23] And I heard this from another person

[00:22:25] later in life, too,

[00:22:27] was there's a certain amount of injuries and death

[00:22:31] that are kind of

[00:22:34] accepted when you build a product like this?

[00:22:37] Like, if we have more than X amount of injuries

[00:22:39] and X amount of deaths,

[00:22:41] then it's something we need to look into, right?

[00:22:44] I don't know

[00:22:45] if Tesla looks at that

[00:22:48] on their risk assessments

[00:22:49] when they do these full self-driving

[00:22:51] and they calculate that in or not.

[00:22:53] I'm sure they would rather not have anybody die,

[00:22:55] but, and this was, oh man,

[00:23:00] 30-ish years ago.

[00:23:01] So, it also could be very likely

[00:23:03] that the information I had was,

[00:23:07] A, wrong,

[00:23:07] because it was 30 years ago,

[00:23:09] and B, doesn't happen anymore.

[00:23:10] So, if you work in that kind of industry,

[00:23:12] let me know if that's the case.

[00:23:13] But anyway,

[00:23:15] I thought it was interesting.

[00:23:17] I'm not 100% sure it's

[00:23:20] 100% true,

[00:23:22] but it is interesting.

[00:23:24] And if you're one of those folks

[00:23:25] that worked on one of those teams

[00:23:26] and you want to share your,

[00:23:28] anonymously,

[00:23:28] anonymously,

[00:23:29] share your experience with me,

[00:23:31] you can email me,

[00:23:32] Bodie,

[00:23:32] B-O-D-I-E

[00:23:33] at 918digital.com.

[00:23:35] You can also find me on

[00:23:37] X

[00:23:37] at 918digital.

[00:23:40] And, yeah,

[00:23:41] if you want to support the show,

[00:23:42] Acast Plus link is in the show notes,

[00:23:44] or you can go to

[00:23:45] patreon.com forward slash kilowatt

[00:23:46] or support kilowatt.com.

[00:23:49] Thank you all for listening.

[00:23:50] Hope you enjoyed today's episode

[00:23:51] and I will talk to you

[00:23:54] on Friday.

[00:24:45] Jetzt ist Herbst

[00:24:47] und bald stehen schon wieder

[00:24:48] die Feiertage vor der Tür.

[00:24:50] Das kann auch für Hunde

[00:24:51] ganz schön stressig sein.

[00:24:53] Viele Vierbeine reagieren unter anderem

[00:24:55] mit einer gestörten Verdauung

[00:24:56] und das ist wiederum Stress

[00:24:58] für ihre Besitzer.

[00:24:59] Aber es gibt schnelle und einfache Hilfe,

[00:25:01] das Probiotikum Purina

[00:25:03] Proplan Forti Flora.

[00:25:05] Streu einfach einen Beutel

[00:25:06] über das tägliche Futter,

[00:25:07] die außergewöhnliche

[00:25:08] Zusammensetzung mit lebenden

[00:25:10] guten Darmbakterien

[00:25:11] stellt das Gleichgewicht

[00:25:12] im Darm wieder her.

[00:25:13] Natürlich kannst du

[00:25:15] Proplan Forti Flora

[00:25:16] auch präventiv

[00:25:17] oder bei alltäglichen

[00:25:18] Verdauungsbeschwerden einsetzen.

[00:25:19] Es unterstützt auch

[00:25:21] bei Ernährungsumstellungen

[00:25:22] oder Antibiotika-Einnahme.

[00:25:24] Purina Proplan Forti Flora

[00:25:26] jetzt auf

[00:25:27] shop.purina.de

[00:25:29] und die

[00:25:29] auf

[00:25:29] die

[00:25:29] auf

[00:25:29] auf

[00:25:29] Thank you.