Rod Simmons and the Rivian Announcement

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[00:01:36] Hello everyone and welcome to Kilowatt. A podcast about electric vehicles, renewable

[00:01:40] energy, autonomous driving, and much, much more. My name is Bodhi and I am your host,

[00:01:44] and we have a big show for you today. Rod Simmons of the SMR podcast and the BBQ and

[00:01:51] Tech podcast agreed to come on the show and talk about Rivians R2 event. We had a great

[00:01:57] time. As a matter of fact, we talked for a very long time, so I'm going to keep this

[00:02:00] part a little bit short. I do want to recognize, though, our new patron. That is Steve. Thank

[00:02:08] you so much for going to patreon.com/kilowatt and signing up and becoming a patron. It means

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[00:03:45] It really does mean a lot. So thank you very much. All right, let's go ahead and move on

[00:03:50] to our interview with Rod Simmons when we are discussing the R2 event. I would like to welcome

[00:03:57] Rod to the show. Thanks for having me here again. This is my second appearance. Hopefully

[00:04:03] it won't be my last second in four years, I think. I didn't go back to look the exact

[00:04:12] time period. But yeah, second in four years. Well, Rod, I had you on because, or I wanted

[00:04:19] to have you on because the Rivian made an announcement. And I know that you are a big

[00:04:26] fan of electric vehicles. I think at one point in time, you've even had a reservation on

[00:04:30] an R1T, is that right? R1s. I do have a reservation on R1s. Yes. Got it, got it. Well, let's start

[00:04:37] with that, because you are currently a two Tesla household. What was it about the R1s

[00:04:43] that made you want to move away from Tesla? Yeah, so be careful. I don't want to, I'm not

[00:04:50] moving anywhere away from Tesla. Okay. The thing that attracted me, the R1s is like that

[00:04:56] traditional big SUV that you expect, like Range Rover or an Escalade or Tahoe. It just

[00:05:03] has the same body style look and feel. And it's, it appears to be more roomy than what

[00:05:09] you can get with Tesla's Model X. I have a family, four people. My kids are older, like

[00:05:14] so in the Model X, it was really useful when I got it seven years ago, because my youngest

[00:05:19] were, I think my youngest were eight and six at the time. And now they're 13 and 15.

[00:05:30] So they're just a lot bigger. And I just, if, when we are all in one vehicle as a family

[00:05:34] and any more room, typically I don't have them all. Like I usually just may have the

[00:05:38] younger two and the older two just say, we can drive, we'll just follow behind you. And

[00:05:42] it's just my wife and the younger two. And I like the idea that we can just take all

[00:05:46] like put down the back row seats, though all the stuff in that one big SUV and go. And

[00:05:53] what I don't like about the Model X, I have the six seat version. And if you've ever

[00:05:58] been in a Model X, there's no armrests on the side. Like so, and the seats in the back

[00:06:04] don't recline a lot. So like, think of long road trips. What did you want to do as a kid

[00:06:08] sitting in the back as you wanted to be able to recline? You wanted to be able to sleep?

[00:06:12] If it's just you back there, you want to be able to lay across the row. And because

[00:06:15] I don't have a bed seat, it's bucket seats with no arms. It's just less comfortable from

[00:06:20] a long term road tripping car. And it's a, it's purely a room thing. So the Rivian appeals

[00:06:26] to me because of the additional space. And some of the deficiencies that I have because

[00:06:31] of what I selected from a Model X that just weren't there. But yeah, that's what drove

[00:06:37] me to looking at the R1s because it definitely aligns with a use case of how I would like

[00:06:44] to see it in. Well, I love the X doors. There are times where they're not the best designed

[00:06:49] for a door to be opening up on a vehicle.

[00:06:52] Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't, I didn't want to, you were anti-Tesla or anything, but anybody

[00:06:58] listens to the SMR podcast, you are very much not. You are fair on Tesla, if anything.

[00:07:06] So my wife, we're looking, we'll pay my car off in like a year, my Model Y. So we're looking

[00:07:14] for a car for my wife because hers is due. And she wants a bigger car. She has a minivan

[00:07:18] right now. And I showed her the R1s, which is a little bit of money. It's a lot of money

[00:07:26] for that R1s. But make a cry when you pay for it.

[00:07:31] It's the only electric SUV in the size that she would feel comfortable driving based on

[00:07:38] what we do with the kids in terms of traveling and stuff. As you know, if you got young kids,

[00:07:45] you got to travel with a lot of stuff. And it's the only one that she said, I had dinner

[00:07:51] last night, I said, this is the only one that you liked. And she's like, no, no, no, she's

[00:07:55] like, I didn't say I liked it. I said, it was okay. For me, that's you liking it. That's

[00:08:00] you. I don't understand the difference, but yeah. So the R1s is a great looking vehicle.

[00:08:06] The R1t is a great looking vehicle. And then we get to the R2 event, the R2 platform. You

[00:08:15] watched the video. You watched the announcement. Yes, it did.

[00:08:18] They started off with the adventure network. And I just kind of wanted to dive into this

[00:08:23] just a little bit because in the, I think it was the end of this month, Rivian will gain

[00:08:28] access to the supercharger network. But RJ said that they were going to have 600 Rivian

[00:08:35] adventure charging stations within the next few years. Currently, they have 67 and a total

[00:08:43] of 400 DC fast chargers. So I don't know what a few years looks like for RJ, but that's

[00:08:48] a lot of work in terms of getting that built out.

[00:08:51] Yeah, I would agree on that. I think the key for Rivian and I think where the adventure

[00:08:56] network. So, sorry, let me take a step back. If you think about the connection they have

[00:09:01] with Tesla or Evigo or Electrify America, that's about the road tripping that people

[00:09:08] are going to do. Part of the, I guess, the ethos of the DNA of Rivian is about adventure.

[00:09:15] And the adventure network should be at trailheads. So what I expected is if I'm going to Moab,

[00:09:23] that I, if I'm entering a trail Moab, I should be able to hit a Rivian charger at the entry

[00:09:27] and exit points that I might have going throughout Moab or somewhere in Utah. Or even if you're

[00:09:32] looking at East Coast US, if you're doing off-roading, like to me, that's the adventure

[00:09:35] network has to hit those off-roading points and be solid there so that I can, I know that

[00:09:41] I can charge up with, let's say, the Tesla or Electrify America network to get to my

[00:09:48] off-roading. And then I know that I can fill up, I can charge up before I hit my off-roading

[00:09:54] adventures and know that when I exit out at various exit points, I have that. So that's,

[00:09:58] that's where I'm hoping, I mean, I saw the map that they laid out. I'm like, please focus

[00:10:02] on the off-roading capabilities for the Rivian and let other people like Tesla and Electrify

[00:10:10] America handle that cross-country road trip traveling. Because, again, it's just where

[00:10:16] Rivian is going to be strong at is going to be that trailhead. And if you think cybertrucks

[00:10:20] could be out there doing the same thing and it allows Tesla to focus on that cross-country

[00:10:25] travel and Rivian to focus in an area that I think would benefit them and they would

[00:10:29] have Tesla customers coming there to charge as well.

[00:10:33] You know what? So I was actually a little surprised when he made this announcement at

[00:10:37] the beginning simply because just like you said, Rivian said that they're going to place

[00:10:42] these charging points at places where people want to go off-roading or go camping. They

[00:10:49] did say that. But the network, I don't think the networks necessary. You have Electrify

[00:10:54] America. Like you said, you have Blink, you have all these other EV go, you have all these

[00:10:59] other charging networks out there. I guess I didn't come around to this way thinking

[00:11:06] to tell you to just set it, but all the pieces made fell into place. Like if you're going

[00:11:10] to build a charging network, build a charging network where these other places aren't willing

[00:11:14] to put them. Anything else on the adventure network?

[00:11:17] Nope. Like I say, I think we both agree, focused on trailheads and Electrify America. I've

[00:11:23] heard mixed reviews on user experience. I'm fortunate where I, with Tesla's, I've never

[00:11:29] had to interact with the network, but I've had like, I know Chris from the SMR podcast

[00:11:35] has gone on a road trip using Electrify America and he didn't have any problems. I mean, it

[00:11:41] was a very seamless trip for him, but then you hear the nightmare stories. So yeah, no,

[00:11:45] for me, no more on the adventure network other than I'm excited to see more people having

[00:11:52] access to the supercharger network, which I think will hopefully force Tesla to continue

[00:11:57] to build out and expand it for all EV owners.

[00:12:02] Yeah. They're definitely doing that for sure. We don't have to talk about how people are

[00:12:08] going to actually charge these third-party EVs at these stations, at these supercharger

[00:12:15] locations, because that in itself, it's already hard enough to get a supercharger when it's

[00:12:19] busy, somebody taking up two spots because that's the only way they can charge because

[00:12:24] Tesla has ridiculously short cabling.

[00:12:27] Yeah. Yes. It's funny because, you know, when they talk about the adapters, I wonder

[00:12:32] if any of the, like, because they, someone has mentioned, I saw a podcast and they mentioned

[00:12:37] that the instructions they were giving people, like for the Ford, was to kind of park between

[00:12:42] space. I'm like, that's great as an instruction so that they can get the cord to reach. The

[00:12:46] problem is now they're taking up two stalls versus one. And I'm surprised that the adapters

[00:12:53] they're working on are just an adapter, not an adapter with a cable, so that it gets just

[00:12:57] enough stretch so that you can park normal in a space, but extend the cable so you now

[00:13:02] have an adapter plus cable, like there might be, like, even four feet of cable or two feet

[00:13:06] of cable, whatever you need so that they can charge.

[00:13:10] Absolutely they figured that part out because I think that would be critical for, I'll call

[00:13:14] them the existing vehicles. And then for the next wave of vehicles, I think Rivian, with

[00:13:21] the announcement they just did, they're showing the charge points being on the rear driver's

[00:13:26] side similar to Tesla.

[00:13:28] Yeah. And I will say that the folks at Tesla, I heard this on the AutoSpec podcast and they're

[00:13:36] really good and reliable. I guess Tesla's working on an extension cable, a NACS to NACS

[00:13:41] extension cable. So I feel like it's going to cost $500 for that cable. Those cables

[00:13:47] are not cheap and those adapters are not cheap, but there is something in the works on Tesla's

[00:13:53] side to kind of bridge that gap. It's just going to be very expensive.

[00:13:57] Yeah, I know the Ford adapter, well, it's free for now until June 30th and it'll be $230

[00:14:05] after just for the adapter, which seems it's pretty, I mean, it's high, but it's a fair

[00:14:09] price. If you already own the vehicle and you own it before June 30th and you register

[00:14:13] it, you get it for free. I'm hoping Rivian does something similar for Rivian owners when

[00:14:18] the adapter comes out that there's kind of this grace period for free and then post

[00:14:23] that. It's unfortunate because I have an R1S and the only thing that's delaying me is

[00:14:29] like, when are you going to switch the port on this? So I don't have to be adapter happy

[00:14:35] because, I mean, charging at my house is super simple. I already have an adapter that goes

[00:14:39] from Tesla to J1772. So I could charge it home easily. The bigger challenge is on a road

[00:14:46] trip. Obviously, the adapter would remain in my car, but it's just one additional piece

[00:14:51] for when charging. And I would, as a person who goes to a lot of Tesla charges, I would

[00:14:57] be frustrated to pull up to a charger where it says that there are one or two stalls available

[00:15:02] and can come to find like, you know, three F one 50s and Rivians park between spaces.

[00:15:09] So I can't charge. And I have to just sit there and watch because that is the only way

[00:15:12] they can get the cables to reach. And I can't pull in and charge. And so I'm, I'm hoping

[00:15:19] that one, Rivian gets a thing there. And then two, that hopefully we get some extension

[00:15:23] cables to make it viable so that we don't have, I don't say fights breaking out of charging

[00:15:29] stations, but frustration across vendors.

[00:15:32] It might be fights. It might be fights like when, when, when I didn't have a charger in

[00:15:39] the garage, I'm pointing behind me because that's where the garage is when I didn't have

[00:15:43] a charger in the garage. I had to go to a mall to charge and me and everybody else.

[00:15:53] Most of those folks maybe driving for Uber or whatever are charging up in the morning.

[00:15:57] And it's busy and there's no system other than the honor system about who's going to

[00:16:02] take which spot when somebody leaves. And that's, it's already kind of stressful. You

[00:16:07] don't want to be a jerk. I don't think anybody there does. But also, you know, it takes a

[00:16:12] long time to get your, your, your car charged in those situations.

[00:16:15] Yeah. If you're not a fast charger and you're at a, you're at a, I guess, a traditional

[00:16:20] like a level two charger, it is that would be brutal.

[00:16:23] Yeah. Yeah. This was a DC fast, supercharging network, but it was just, it's really busy

[00:16:28] and there's like probably eight or none of this has got to be run that. There's probably

[00:16:32] 10 stalls. What state are you at again? Arizona.

[00:16:34] Okay. Yeah. So you're, I think it's like any of those nice, beautiful, warm states.

[00:16:39] Yeah. I spent a lot of time in Phoenix and I know what last time I was there, the number

[00:16:44] of Teslas I see in Phoenix is insane. So, and I could imagine like some of the charges

[00:16:50] I've had an opportunity to go to in the Phoenix area, Gilbert area just around there. They,

[00:16:56] they can. So there are some that can be super congested. So I could imagine that being problematic.

[00:17:01] Yeah. And in Tesla's defense, since I bought my car, I bought my car in May of last year

[00:17:06] and they've opened two superchargers near and around me. So, that's nice. Two locations.

[00:17:13] So yeah, for them, also I'm going to give you maybe a ray of hope, but no promises on

[00:17:19] that Rivian connector. Yeah. That next connector on the R1 Rivian is shutting down production

[00:17:25] and it's either this month or in April to reconfigure the line. They're going to improve

[00:17:30] some efficiencies and update some stuff in the vehicles. My hope was that they were going

[00:17:35] to throw that next connector on their cars at that time because they're, they're opening

[00:17:43] up that they're getting access in, let's see, the end of this month to the supercharger

[00:17:50] network. Yep. So, like you said, also, don't hold your breath. R.J. who has been very quiet

[00:17:58] about whether or not they're going to give that free adapter out to folks. I kind of

[00:18:04] figured that if they were going to do it, they would have announced it by now.

[00:18:07] Yeah. I think forward when they originally announced the connector, they did announce

[00:18:13] it was going to be a free adapter. And as I said, if it's even, even if you have to pay

[00:18:18] for it, again, if you're buying a $100,000 car, you may not want to pay $100 for an additional

[00:18:24] adapter. It's a pain. However, I think most people, if they looked at it and said, wait

[00:18:30] a second, I get access to all these additional chargers. Road tripping becomes a little bit

[00:18:33] easier, a more reliable network. I think it's great. I'm a, I'm a night driver when it comes

[00:18:38] to long-term road trips. So the lot of the pain that I hear people say about road tripping

[00:18:43] is because many people like to road trip, like they want to get up at like, you know,

[00:18:47] 536 in the morning, get on the road and they drive during the day. I'm, I'll leave it like

[00:18:51] around 9, 30, 10 on the clock at night or 1 or 2 in the morning and hit the road. And

[00:18:57] I'm 90% of the weight of my destination by 8 a.m. So I'm like hitting my last charge

[00:19:01] at 8 a.m. or 7 a.m. and then pulling in. So for me, like the pain that many, many people

[00:19:09] feel with that long-range road trip, I don't feel because at two o'clock in the morning,

[00:19:14] no one's at the chargers that I go to. But again, many people are like, I did, I cannot

[00:19:19] be driving at 2 a.m. Like I would fall asleep and wreck. But for me, it's like just getting

[00:19:24] up it, you know, one at two o'clock in the morning hitting the road and driving for,

[00:19:28] you know, seven or eight hours is, it's just a no brainer for me.

[00:19:32] I much prefer it because I can pull into a supercharger.

[00:19:36] I can plug in and I can close my eyes and go to sleep.

[00:19:38] Nice.

[00:19:40] I think we've thoroughly covered charging.

[00:19:42] Yes.

[00:19:42] I want to know.

[00:19:44] No, it's okay.

[00:19:44] I, I, I'm, I'm as guilty.

[00:19:46] Let's move on to the R2.

[00:19:47] Uh, initial pressure impression.

[00:19:49] So the R2.

[00:19:50] So, um, let me, let me take a step and say on the overall announcement, the first,

[00:19:58] the first thing that came to mind after I watched the entire announcement was.

[00:20:02] There's a lot of complexity that's going into the overall process for Rivian

[00:20:08] to do vehicle delivery.

[00:20:09] So the R2, I was like, I love it.

[00:20:12] The reviews I've heard on the R1s is.

[00:20:17] It's not as big as you would think like with an escalate, like an extended body

[00:20:22] escalate.

[00:20:22] It's not, it's, I've seen them.

[00:20:24] They're not that big.

[00:20:25] So they already feel like a smaller and this is a smaller version of it.

[00:20:28] I think they, they think they did a lot of great things.

[00:20:32] The frustration I have is first half of 20, 26 is a long ways away.

[00:20:39] I mean, you're to be realistic.

[00:20:42] I mean, we all have dealt with software and vendors and they, when they say first

[00:20:46] half of 20, 26, what they mean is June 30th, 20, 26, like literally, we will at

[00:20:53] least have it by the last day of the first half of 20, 26.

[00:20:56] Yeah.

[00:20:56] Um, so with it being two years away and I, I did go back and do some research.

[00:21:01] And I was like, I don't want to be unfair to Rivian.

[00:21:03] Tesla announced in 2016, March, the model three, the following year, 2017 by July

[00:21:12] shipping.

[00:21:12] So that was like about 16 months.

[00:21:15] And like the announcement Rivian is getting us like, you might say, well, Rod,

[00:21:19] it's only like, uh, you know, 12 plus six months.

[00:21:22] So it's about 18 months away.

[00:21:23] But I was like, no, there's six more months added on top of that.

[00:21:26] So we could be, you know, pushing, you know, we're too, we could be a little

[00:21:31] of two years away from potential, the first vehicle delivery.

[00:21:34] If you're being somewhat pessimistic.

[00:21:36] So that was my first concern, the vehicle.

[00:21:38] Now, if you asked just about what I think of the vehicle, loved it.

[00:21:42] I was like, I liked.

[00:21:43] So there, there's subtle things that I noticed about the vehicle.

[00:21:46] Um, first, when I looked at it, I liked the fact that the doors front and

[00:21:51] back opened between the wheel walls.

[00:21:53] That tells me that there's definitely some room on the vehicle, whereas when you

[00:21:56] went to the R three, you could see that kind of curve of the door opening over

[00:22:01] the rear wheel wall, which means a lot, a lot more compression inside the cabin.

[00:22:05] So that I liked fricking.

[00:22:07] They have a, um, uh, two glove box.

[00:22:11] I was like, just give one, uh, but in fact they have a glove box was great.

[00:22:14] Yeah, it was funny.

[00:22:15] Um, I like the, I think this was someone that had the roll down rear window.

[00:22:21] Or was it pop up?

[00:22:22] I think this was the pop out.

[00:22:24] Oh, no, the rear window is rolled down.

[00:22:25] Yeah, rolled down.

[00:22:26] So I liked that.

[00:22:27] Um, so there's a lot of, there's a lot to really like about that vehicle.

[00:22:31] But for me, it was, is it going to be in that class of large enough?

[00:22:36] Does it have?

[00:22:38] Is it the right price point, which at.

[00:22:39] Two hundred and 70 miles, $45,000 as your start point.

[00:22:44] I think it's, it's, it's a great sweet spot.

[00:22:47] I wish they could have had a little bit better range on it.

[00:22:50] But again, the, the numbers are right for many people going into the vehicle,

[00:22:54] even though that won't be the average selling price on the vehicles when they hit the market.

[00:22:57] Um, and the inside design and everything just had everything you wanted.

[00:23:03] I think it kind of sucks that they're not going to have the, I think that one

[00:23:06] did not have the camps, the speaker, camp speaker in it, which it seemed like it was

[00:23:11] like that would have been just a nice little great win.

[00:23:14] I mean, you're talking a hundred dollar item, but I know that at some point in time,

[00:23:17] you're trying to scrape together pennies to get to this 45,000.

[00:23:20] I'll start part price.

[00:23:21] Um, and I can't remember as the R one asked the R three when they showed the flashlight

[00:23:28] on the R, sorry, on the R two or the R three on the R one.

[00:23:32] As when you look at the flashlight, it is like inside the doors.

[00:23:36] You have to press it to have it come out.

[00:23:37] Right.

[00:23:38] And on one of the vehicles, when they showed it, it was like, you could kind of see the flashlight was there

[00:23:42] and it didn't feel like this kind of hidden element.

[00:23:45] It's like, they definitely highlight it.

[00:23:47] They even made a yellow.

[00:23:48] There was like a little yellow mark on the, on the flashlight, so that you knew it was there.

[00:23:53] And which again, when you think about usability, it's good because when you need a flashlight,

[00:23:59] you want it to be there.

[00:23:59] And I think at least for including that, I don't think being, think about like when you get a brand new vehicle,

[00:24:05] you put your kids in a new vehicle, they're driving, you want to make sure they have flashlight.

[00:24:10] They want to have like the, the little placards they could put on the ground.

[00:24:13] If they're, they're stuck in like the people, the reflective stuff, all those things you want to have in a vehicle.

[00:24:17] I think it's this is just one of those elements.

[00:24:20] It's great.

[00:24:20] They're including the camp speaker at bare minimum.

[00:24:25] And I know that I'm jumping way ahead.

[00:24:27] There are three, the crossover one that better have that should have a camp speaker in it

[00:24:32] because that is geared towards a younger market where that speaker is awesome.

[00:24:36] So I, I like the vehicle.

[00:24:38] I liked a lot.

[00:24:39] What did you think?

[00:24:41] Uh, OK, so I like the R1s a lot.

[00:24:45] I like the R2 a little less.

[00:24:46] Oh, OK.

[00:24:47] I, I, it, it seems like that, that hood that sticks out, it, that seems like a lot of the car.

[00:24:54] There's a lot of hood on that car.

[00:24:56] And my concern is it's a lot of hood and then it drops off drastically.

[00:25:00] My concern is that's going to be a little bit harder to see the road in front of you.

[00:25:04] Yeah, not a big deal in most situations.

[00:25:07] But if you're trying to, um, you know, kids, I'm going to, I'm going to go from a firefighters

[00:25:15] standpoint, kids are my main concern on that.

[00:25:17] If you can't see a kid because it's it, you can't see 10 or 12 feet in front of you

[00:25:22] because of that hood.

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:23] Just by the way it is, that that would be my concern just in general.

[00:25:27] Other than that, I still like the car.

[00:25:31] Like I'm not, I didn't hate the car.

[00:25:33] Well, I liked it a lot. I'm surprised they didn't have a, you know, because Tesla's

[00:25:39] moving to that camera on like the front bumper.

[00:25:41] I'm surprised they didn't have that.

[00:25:42] And I might it's 11.

[00:25:44] It's there 11 cameras.

[00:25:46] They might have that.

[00:25:46] Yeah.

[00:25:47] I don't, I'm looking at the image of it now.

[00:25:49] And I'm like, I didn't see it.

[00:25:50] And it's funny because when looking at the video live, the doors, as I just mentioned,

[00:25:55] they look like they're between the wheel walls.

[00:25:56] And now I'm looking, I was like, wait a second, that door is not between the

[00:25:58] wheel walls on the R one assets. It's a little, it's a little bit on the wheel.

[00:26:03] The R two, R two or two, sorry, the R two, the, the door actually isn't as in between

[00:26:10] the wheels as I thought it was.

[00:26:11] So I, I will take back the statement.

[00:26:13] I said just a couple minutes ago, when looking at it now versus what I saw in the video,

[00:26:17] it's, it's, it is a, you're right.

[00:26:21] Now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, yeah, this, the front hood is really long.

[00:26:27] I can see from your standpoint, the, the risk or concern with how long the front hood is.

[00:26:31] Yeah. And also if you just type in R two in pictures, guess what you get?

[00:26:37] You get R two D two.

[00:26:38] There we go.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:43] Yeah.

[00:26:43] So did that prevent you from doing, because I know you say you're not a vehicle in your household,

[00:26:49] are you considering a reservation on one?

[00:26:51] I don't.

[00:26:54] My wife likes to set up a little bit higher.

[00:26:56] Okay. And this is, well, I got the specs right here.

[00:26:59] So I converted all of our specs.

[00:27:03] Let me go to this.

[00:27:04] So this is 15 and a half feet long, which is one and a half feet shorter than the R one S

[00:27:12] and half a foot shorter than the model Y.

[00:27:14] So that's right in that, it's right in that sweet spot.

[00:27:17] I'm not unhappy with, with how long it is.

[00:27:20] It's about five and a half feet tall.

[00:27:24] So it's a little bit shorter than the R one S.

[00:27:26] Yep.

[00:27:26] And then let's see.

[00:27:30] It talks about the wheel was, didn't really talk about how wide it was.

[00:27:35] It looked nice and roomy on the inside.

[00:27:37] RJ Scringed mentioned that he was six one.

[00:27:41] Yes.

[00:27:41] He got in the car with Marquez Brownlee.

[00:27:43] They both looked comfortable, although when, and I'm sure RJ could have pushed his seat back a

[00:27:48] little bit.

[00:27:49] But when he was in there, his knees were right up to the dash.

[00:27:53] But I'm guessing he didn't, I'm guessing didn't adjust his seat because Marquez looks like he's

[00:27:58] a little taller just when they were standing next to each other.

[00:28:01] And Marquez did not have that same thing.

[00:28:02] Right.

[00:28:03] I don't think that that's an issue, but inside it looked roomy.

[00:28:07] I would have liked to have seen that.

[00:28:08] I didn't watch the whole Marquez video, but I would like to have seen somebody get in the

[00:28:11] back that was roughly their size and see how comfortable it was.

[00:28:14] Yeah.

[00:28:15] So I'll say I'm, I'm fortunate, but unfortunate that I'm not vertically challenged.

[00:28:21] So typically, a seven foot tall person can sit behind me.

[00:28:25] I'm only five seven.

[00:28:26] So if I'm in behind somebody, if they're six foot, typically I have enough room.

[00:28:31] So I'm comfortable.

[00:28:32] But we all know that if you're on a long road trip, if a six foot foot foot, like I may be

[00:28:37] able to sit behind anybody, you know, when you're on a, you know, running around town,

[00:28:41] like 30 minute, you might be behind somebody.

[00:28:43] But if you're talking, you know, three or four hours straight driving, yeah, you get a little

[00:28:48] less comfortable.

[00:28:48] But I agree with you, I would, would have preferred if they showed a tall person in the front with

[00:28:55] a tall person behind them to see how much leg room they had.

[00:28:57] Yeah.

[00:28:59] One of the things that I think it's overlooked at Tesla events is there's always somebody

[00:29:03] in every seat when they roll a car out.

[00:29:05] I was shocked on that.

[00:29:06] And then they get out and they just had one person.

[00:29:09] And I think that was, you know, folks of different size get in there, show us, you know,

[00:29:15] I want to see somebody that's, that's big and tall.

[00:29:18] And I want to see them getting out of the back seat.

[00:29:20] I want to see the clown car show.

[00:29:22] Show me everybody rolling out.

[00:29:25] I agree with the 100%.

[00:29:26] Yeah.

[00:29:26] That would have been, that would have been definitely a win for them if they would have shown that.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:32] But overall, it looks roomy.

[00:29:34] Let's see here.

[00:29:36] Let's talk.

[00:29:38] Let's talk about the interior a little bit, because since we're kind of on that,

[00:29:41] it is a five-seater, two rows.

[00:29:44] One of the things I thought was neat.

[00:29:45] I'm not a camper myself.

[00:29:46] To me, camping is staying anywhere less than a Ritz Carlton.

[00:29:50] So.

[00:29:50] All right.

[00:29:57] You like to rough it, I see.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:59] Sometimes I have to.

[00:30:01] Sometimes I have to.

[00:30:02] So the thought that you can throw an inflatable mattress, because both rows

[00:30:11] stow the seats or they fall down flat.

[00:30:14] So you can throw an inflatable mattress back there.

[00:30:17] At 15 and a half feet long, it's big enough where you could probably have two adults

[00:30:23] and two small children sleep comfortably in there for a while.

[00:30:27] Not probably long term, like you wouldn't want to live in there.

[00:30:31] But if you're going out camping for a night and you didn't have a tent,

[00:30:34] you could probably make that work if you had two small kids.

[00:30:36] So I agree with you 100% on that.

[00:30:40] I'm not a huge camper.

[00:30:42] We've done camping trips with our kids.

[00:30:44] I don't.

[00:30:45] I'm not for where to camp.

[00:30:46] I'm going to be in a tent.

[00:30:47] I mean, it's just fine.

[00:30:48] Like, you know, we're usually when we've camped, it's like three or four day type activities.

[00:30:52] I'm not roughing it for months on end.

[00:30:55] But what I like, I don't even like the fact that the front row seats folded down flat

[00:31:00] is like outstanding.

[00:31:02] But I kind of looked at it as the nicety of being able to have like the,

[00:31:09] if you will, the trunk, if you will, the vehicle plus that second row fold down is,

[00:31:13] yes, if you and your wife were saying, you know, we're going away for a long weekend,

[00:31:17] we're going to go here.

[00:31:18] We're going to do a little hiking that.

[00:31:19] It's very viable that you can say, we're just going to create a bed in the back here

[00:31:23] for our long road trip.

[00:31:25] And we can pull in to like a Hilton or wherever it is with a slow charger.

[00:31:30] We can plug in after we're tired for the night, let the car start charging,

[00:31:34] you know, pull out, lay in the back of the car and we can just pass out.

[00:31:37] I don't need to get a hotel for the night.

[00:31:39] The back of the car can be our, our suitcases in the front trunk and underneath and a little bit

[00:31:44] in the back and just a bed that we can lay out for a road trip from Arizona to a proper

[00:31:50] place to live in the U.S. like Washington, D.C. area or wherever you want.

[00:31:53] You know, now that you said that, I didn't even put this together.

[00:31:58] My oldest, she's 28, she has a model three and her and her boyfriend, they travel.

[00:32:05] They work both work from home.

[00:32:07] Yeah, they travel all over the country and work from different places.

[00:32:11] And they want a bit, they want a little bit bigger vehicle, something a little bigger,

[00:32:16] maybe model wise size.

[00:32:17] But they were part of the Snowpocalypse in Texas a couple of years ago and they had no heat,

[00:32:25] like it was more comfortable for them to sit in their model three than it was for them to sit in

[00:32:30] the, and they have a dog in the house that they had rented that was right on the beach

[00:32:35] that was getting pounded by those freezing cold winds.

[00:32:39] So this, if they had this in that situation, they could have easily folded everything down.

[00:32:45] They have their dog, who's a golden retriever.

[00:32:48] She could have been very comfortable and they could have been very comfortable.

[00:32:53] And I mean, hopefully that'll never happen to them again, but so I could definitely see that.

[00:32:58] So to compliment your story, like, because your daughter and her, you said husband or

[00:33:01] boyfriend, boyfriend, like trying to move around, like think about people who are buying

[00:33:07] camper vans who want to move around the US.

[00:33:09] And because they're like, my job, I can work anywhere as long as I have internet and phone.

[00:33:15] Whereas if you're younger and you have that capabilities, like today I'm working at a

[00:33:19] guard at a, sorry, a wine garden in Napa Valley and tomorrow might be somewhere else.

[00:33:27] That kind of vehicle would be very conducive for that, but my neighbor, their son, he went

[00:33:33] and moved out to Colorado and when he graduated from college and all he, when he moved out,

[00:33:40] it was actually in the dead of winter, he was going out there to ski.

[00:33:42] He's like, I don't have a place to stay.

[00:33:44] Pretty much living in my car, skiing, and he was trying to, he was actually putting

[00:33:49] insulation on the doors of the, like he opened up the doors of the car, put insulation in the car

[00:33:53] to try to make sure you can maintain heat. And I'm like, well, one, he didn't have an electric car.

[00:33:58] He was a gas combustion car. So that's why he couldn't run the car all night long.

[00:34:02] But I was like, this would have been the perfect vehicle for him was get yourself an R2, fold it

[00:34:06] down, your bed's in the back, you're driving the car, when you get someplace you can park,

[00:34:11] get on a level two charger, plug in for the night and, you know, take some Susan's in the back of the

[00:34:15] car. You can put the, if you ever watch Born Island, he'll like when he's sleeping in his Tesla,

[00:34:22] he'll actually put things up on the window so people can't look in. And it also prevents the

[00:34:26] frost from building up in the car from all the hot air we breathe out when we sleep. But, I mean,

[00:34:32] like for your daughter, as you said, it would have saved her from the painfully cold temperatures in

[00:34:38] Texas, but it would also be very conducive to her highly mobile lifestyle of moving through the

[00:34:44] U.S. and just saying, I, as I'm going from Arizona or Texas, I think you should, she's into California,

[00:34:50] or to Wyoming, or to the East Coast areas. I can, I don't need to get a hotel, you know, every night

[00:34:57] to sleep and we can sleep in the car. And I mean, that, when you're on a budget, the cost savings for

[00:35:04] that is about better. And honestly, being able to road trip and just say, just laying the back of

[00:35:09] the car, go to sleep. And when we get to our destination, we might add a hotel in there because

[00:35:13] we don't feel like going to gyms all the time to shower is a, it's a rock star.

[00:35:18] Yeah, I agree. And not to extend this conversation any longer, but my father-in-law has one of those

[00:35:25] sprinter vans. It's not a sprinter van, it's made by Dodge, but one of those sprinter van

[00:35:29] are V's. Yeah. And he could probably, honestly, for what he does, because he just goes out for a

[00:35:34] couple of days at a time, he doesn't use the bathroom in it, he doesn't shower in it. Because

[00:35:39] it's kind of small, he's not, he's like 5'4", he's not particularly tall. But he, he doesn't use

[00:35:46] any of that stuff, because it's a pain in the butt to clean and maintain and all that stuff. So

[00:35:51] all he does is sleep in this van, and he does a little bit of cooking, he doesn't even do that

[00:35:54] much, he's basically just a microwave. So he could easily do this. Yeah.

[00:35:57] So I know you were giving some stats. Did you, the, I did want to make sure I touched on the R1,

[00:36:06] what, what will I buy? Okay. So I did want to see the R2, before it made any decision. I can tell you

[00:36:16] unequivocally R1s is, I will stick with the R1s and I will, I'm thinking within the next six or so

[00:36:23] months, I will do an R1s. The biggest concern I have, which is why I'm sitting on my mind just

[00:36:30] for a little bit long with Rivian, is it's just the ongoing concern of can they pull through this

[00:36:37] wave and get to volume production. And that's where, when I started off with saying the first

[00:36:40] thing that popped to mind was complexity. If you think about the R1s and the R1t,

[00:36:47] you have the quad motor, you have the tri motor, you have rear row motors, it's like complexity,

[00:36:53] complexity, complexity. You have the R2 now coming out, you have different battery configurations,

[00:36:58] different motor, motor configurations, like dual motor, tri motor, single motor, rear motor. It's like,

[00:37:05] I'm long term concerned is can they simplify the supply chain, simplify the manufacturing process,

[00:37:14] so they can get to volume because Tesla was doing roughly 20,000 model S's and X's

[00:37:19] when they announced and shipped the model three. Rivian is an app, there was 20,000 numbers for the

[00:37:26] R1t and the R1s yet. I think they'll get there. But they're introducing another model, again,

[00:37:33] almost two to two to two years to two years and three months away. But I'm praying that they can get

[00:37:40] over that hump and I'm concerned that because they announced so far early that there's going

[00:37:47] to be a lot of people who are like, I was going to buy the R1, the R1s, but now I'm looking at it.

[00:37:52] I mean, what the start price difference is the R1s starts at 74. The R1, the R2 starts at 45.

[00:38:03] That's 30 grand. So if you weren't on the fence, you're likely saying

[00:38:09] it was what I wanted because it's all you had. Now there's an option that's $30,000 cheaper.

[00:38:17] So there might be R1s owners who say, I'm going to get the R2 and I will wait two years, which

[00:38:24] further impacts the amount of loss that Rivian has on a per vehicle delivery until they can get

[00:38:29] to some volume. That's my biggest concern is I'm hesitant to want to buy it because

[00:38:34] will they be around two years, three years? I pray so. I'm a shareholder, so trust me, I really

[00:38:41] pray so, but that's the only concern I have for Rivian is can they make it to this R2 date?

[00:38:47] So in speaking to the complexity, Rivian, I think it was last year, a lot of the components

[00:38:57] that make up the drivetrain, the motor and the modules, not battery modules, but the modules that

[00:39:03] that go on the motor that manage.

[00:39:04] like how much torque to put on this wheel and that wheel. All of that was separate for a while and now they've, and it's been a while since I've gone through this so I don't want to speak like, like I know it. I'm just vaguely remembering it. All of that kind of combined into one package. So that's, that's one piece now instead of several different pieces and Rivian is, I'm sure they have different suppliers, but they're, they're the ones manufacturing those. So that is, that's a piece of good news. I do agree.

[00:39:33] And I had a similar thought when they said single motor, dual motor, it's like cool. And then they said, try motor. I was like slow, slow you roll a little bit. That doesn't seem like that, that makes a whole lot of sense. And maybe the try motor will come not in 2026. Maybe that's going to be 2027.

[00:39:48] Yeah. And, and battery pack size. So you start to think it's, it's, it's a exponential problem because like, if I went to Tesla right now, I can choose between performance and non performance. It's the same battery pack. I don't have an option there.

[00:40:01] Colors, I say, let's ignore those wheels. Let's say we ignore those. But Tesla does have the complexity with the seat configuration. Do you want to five, a six or a seven seater?

[00:40:11] Yeah. But, I mean, like we just, the Rivian has to reduce that complexity. Cause when you think, I mean, I went to, I actually did a tour of the Tesla factory.

[00:40:22] And I watched vehicles coming down the line. And they do say that, you know, when a vehicle's coming down the line, is this going to get the bigger motor? Is it going to get like, is it going to get two motors on the back? It's going to get this.

[00:40:33] So a lot of that stuff, you know, you might have to retool the line for right now. We're just running performances that are coming out. Now we're running, you know, dual motors. Now we're running single motors.

[00:40:43] So they have to, every time they have to slow something down, it's just like how much complexity do they need to remove from their delivery process to say, there's only one battery pack that you get with Rivian. It's this size.

[00:40:55] We're done. You don't get that to no longer choice. Cause every time you add on it, again, it's just, it's just a multiplier that I can get the rear wheel drive with this battery, this battery, this battery.

[00:41:06] I can get the, you know, the dual motor with this battery, this battery, this battery, or I can get this, the tri motor with this battery. They have to remove some of the complexity out of the, out of that process.

[00:41:16] Yeah. And if anybody's wondering why this is a concern for Rod, I'm assuming that's because complexity adds cost and cost adds non-pro, it makes a non profitable company, which, you know, you lose tens of thousands of dollars in every car, which Rivians currently still do.

[00:41:35] You got it. And as a shareholder, I'd like that to stop very soon.

[00:41:39] Well, even GM, GM could definitely weather the losses and they cut their trim packages way down in complexity so that they could make sure that even though they're not killing it in EVs, they're still making money.

[00:41:52] Yeah. I mean, I work in software and I can tell you the, the, the death of any software company is giving customers too many options. Like trying to be everything to everybody is not good.

[00:42:02] And honestly, when I go look, I like that I can go to Model X and I can say I'm interested in the plaid or that's a $20, $1,000 upgrade. I may not be interested in the plaid.

[00:42:13] And then all I have to do is say this is the color I want. These are the wheels I want. And this is seat configuration.

[00:42:19] Now, I'm pretty much done at that point. Everything else is software. They're delivering.

[00:42:23] So, again, I do think Rivian has some time to figure those things out. There's a massively enthusiastic audience Rivian has, but that the R2, I love it.

[00:42:34] I, for me, the R3 is just too small. It will have an audience. We don't know any pricing on it. The R3 X.

[00:42:43] I would have said if that would have been out when my sons started driving, that would have been the vehicle. If it was on the market, I would have bought the R3.

[00:42:52] I would have bought the R3 X for my kids. Because what I wanted actually was the ID3, which never came to the US. That, to me, that was a perfect vehicle to put my kids in. And it never came to the US.

[00:43:05] And that that R3 X is an ideal first driver car for a kid.

[00:43:12] Yeah.

[00:43:19] I don't know if I'd say ideal. I don't think my kids. I was like, I don't know if I'd say ideal, Rod. Your kids are how old now?

[00:43:25] Yeah. My kids are 11. Okay. By the time my kids have no, at 11, they have no interest in driving.

[00:43:31] I once let my kids, and I remember when they were in neighborhoods, but they never built houses. Yeah.

[00:43:39] This is kind of a. I once let my kids sit on my lap and drive when they were like three or four.

[00:43:44] Am I going to call for my wife? I'm at work. Can I get a call for my wife? Like a couple days later? She's like, Hey, did you let the kids drive the car?

[00:43:51] I was like, those rats, man. At four years old, three or four years old, they ratted me out. That's like, yes. This is the situation we were in. It was not unsafe.

[00:44:01] It's almost like you want to say, wait a second. Did I let them drive the car? I let them do what my father did. They sat on my lap.

[00:44:08] They, I had my hands on the steering wheel. They got to kind of play a little bit at a very slow speed. The only difference between what I did and what my father did is I was not holding a beer with the other kid in the back, holding the keg steady. Like, come on. There was no danger here.

[00:44:23] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was definitely, I, my dad would let me drive on the main road, but on the side road, which was still 45 miles an hour. He'd throw me on his lap.

[00:44:33] Yeah. It's, I, so my oldest son, he, he's a fantastic driver. And the funny thing is it started because he won. He's really into F1 and it's not that he doesn't drive fast. He's in F. Well, I guess he does. He's a teenager, but not crazy. He, he's in F1, but we got, we got him in go carts so much when he's younger that when we actually put him behind the wheel, it was just, he had to get the feathering, but the steering.

[00:45:02] And all the little nuances of the spatial awareness in the car, he was really good at because he had been driving go carts from probably like the age of six years old and up.

[00:45:14] And so getting behind a car wasn't a new for him. It was just learning the idea that when you press the brake, you press not slam.

[00:45:25] Slam. Slam, yeah. And, but yeah, overall, I, I'm, I'm super excited for, for you, because you, your kids are a little younger. They're, what is Arizona? Is it 16 for driver's license or is it 15 and something?

[00:45:38] No, it's 16. Okay. It's 16. So yeah, you're on the, you're on the, you have a five years, which hopefully the R3, R3 acts will be around by the time your, your youngest get to the, the point of driving.

[00:45:52] The, yeah, I have twins. I have twins. They're, they're both not getting, they're probably going to get a model. Why Rod? And I'm going to get another car.

[00:46:03] What do you think happened to my Model X? My 17 year old drive model X? Yeah, I drive our, so my 17 year old drives my Model X and I would rather have him in the super safe car because he's a relatively new driver.

[00:46:15] My, my Model X is at this point, seven years old. I actually drive a 2009 minivan when I'm not driving, when I don't steal my Model X back.

[00:46:24] And the minivan is going to be replaced with the, so this is the other secret.

[00:46:30] My, my 15 year old cuts grass.

[00:46:34] And I need a vehicle that he can, we can fill a lawn mower in and get him to cut in grass. So the R1s could work for that.

[00:46:40] But an R1 t is a little bit better. So the, the struggle for me is, do I go with the pickup truck because it's, it's good for what he's doing now, or do I just do the R1s and say that for a couple of years he'll be throwing lawn equipment in the back of it while he's cutting grass

[00:46:53] because I know that there's like a, he's coming to the end of the, I want to cut grass versus I want to have a nice air condition job indoors and making that pivot and transition.

[00:47:05] Yeah. I mean, trailers, trailers are a great way to work around. True, very true. That's a good, better way to look at it.

[00:47:14] And then you don't get your car all dirty. I like that idea here.

[00:47:19] Okay, I think we've hit, I do want to just kind of re purpose. It's going to come with an axe adapter, not repurpose restate $45,000 to start coming out in 2026.

[00:47:31] They already have 68,000 reservations. Impressive.

[00:47:35] That is very impressive. They are delaying their Georgia plant, which is a $5 billion plant. They've decided not to build that, which here in goes a little bit of concern.

[00:47:50] But apparently they have enough capacity at, I mean, when you're only building 20,000 R1s and R1s in total in a year, is that, was that the number this year?

[00:48:02] It's definitely, yeah, you're not probably far off. It was definitely a lot lower. I can see if I can find it really quick while you talk.

[00:48:09] Because we do so many of these earnings calls every season that I maybe think of a different company. Maybe it was 50. I don't remember.

[00:48:18] But they have enough capacity at normal Illinois plant to actually build the R2s, R3 different story.

[00:48:27] But right now, they can build it at the R2s, save themselves a little bit of money so that they can put this out at a decent price point.

[00:48:35] RJ said that the all motor configurations, all motor configurations will hit 300 miles. But the base model of the car will be less than 300 miles.

[00:48:49] So for $45,000, you're not getting 300 miles. You're getting so, it was a 270.

[00:48:54] Yeah, that came out of the MKBHD video. And to follow up on your question, Rivian had a production last year of 57,232 vehicles, a total delivery of 50,000, 122.

[00:49:09] Okay. And their guidance was like 50,000, 57,000 delivered. It was something nominally larger than what they actually did for 2024.

[00:49:19] Okay. Yeah, I thought I was wrong on that. Thank you. So yeah, can we just go over one more concern that I had?

[00:49:27] Absolutely. And it sounds like I thought this car was great. I am not digging into Rivian. I'm not being critical or anything like that.

[00:49:38] They have a structural battery pack, which I think is great, but a 4695 cylindrical cell form factor.

[00:49:44] To me, that was more concerning than the different battery configurations because nobody else, as far as I know, does this cell size.

[00:49:53] So that means new machines in the factory to build this cell size. If not new machines, new configurations for those machines.

[00:50:03] And the runs are going to have to be very specific to Rivian. And we didn't hear anything about the chemistry. We just know about the form factor.

[00:50:13] Yeah, I wish they would have gone and said, "Hey, we're just going down the same route of Tesla going with the 4680 battery cells."

[00:50:21] Because then you've heard other manufacturers say we're going 4680 and it removes the question of whether it be Panasonic or whomever they go to to reduce batteries.

[00:50:36] It's like we might have a slightly different chemistry from Rivian to Tesla to GM to whoever.

[00:50:42] But we can get batteries from everybody, because everybody is tooled to do this production. Rivian, at the volumes they're at right now, it's just not enough for what they're producing in the course of a year.

[00:50:53] If you want to call a spade a spade, if you figure over the course of four quarters in the year, they're producing about 14,000 vehicles across two models right now.

[00:51:05] Like I said, Tesla was doing 20,000 of each, S is an X as I think it was. So we're doing about 40,000 vehicles.

[00:51:12] Was it a quarter? I think it was a quarter. And Rivian is at like 14,000 across two models per quarter. They need to get those numbers probably almost doubling where they're at right now.

[00:51:25] Yeah, for sure. And the good news is, RJ does not have the hubris Elon has. So he seems like a much more down-to-earth human being in terms of what can possibly be done versus where can we push that envelope to be kind of cutting edge.

[00:51:48] Whereas Elon was what could possibly be done. And then this is much higher up is where we're going to push the envelope beyond what is possible.

[00:51:58] So that, which is also that two years, that leads me to believe that they're probably going to do something where they say, "Hey, listen, we said two years, but end of 2025, you're going to get your car."

[00:52:11] I wouldn't be shocked if you're right. So when I put my Rivian reservation down, I put it down and I had already fudged back and said, "Eh, they're probably not going to have any of my reservation," because I was at the end of the list putting down my reservation.

[00:52:24] And I said, "They're probably not going to get back to me until mid-2020 or four." So I knew I was fine. And I got something in, I think it was almost December.

[00:52:35] I said, "You're ready to configure Rivian." I was like, "You're six months ahead of where I wanted you to be." And again, I'm used to the abuse of Tesla of telling me you're going to deliver me something and not delivering it for four more years.

[00:52:46] So I think you probably will be more right than I am of thinking that they'll be towards the end of the first half where they might be towards beginning and saying, "You can actually start configuring your vehicles and start delivery in February of 2026."

[00:53:02] I pray they pull that into 2025, if they can, because I think it's the longer you have this $30,000 gap between what you're providing today.

[00:53:13] The more people are going to be sitting on the sideline, which means the more deals and as you get closer, more people are going to say, "Well, it's almost here now, so why not wait a little longer to save $30,000?"

[00:53:25] Yeah, and you really have to want the big one to make that calculation work out.

[00:53:32] Or maybe you own a car that has just fallen apart and you just got to make a purchase decision.

[00:53:36] Yeah, like a 2009 workout around the Navy van, like I drive.

[00:53:40] Yeah. Listen, I think that the Kia EV9 is a great stop gap between this car and the R1S and the R2.

[00:53:56] Like the Kia EV9 is not cheap, it's more expensive than the R2, but it's not as expensive as the R1S.

[00:54:03] I'd say when I look at the Kia EV9, I still like the lines on the R1 and the R2 better, but it's not a bad looking vehicle.

[00:54:15] And I've been in a couple of the Kia electric vehicles.

[00:54:19] I mean, when you think about Kia from about 10, 15 years ago, you're like, "Ew."

[00:54:25] And now you look at Kia and you're like, "Mm, they figured it out. They're really good at manufacturing. It's tight quality.

[00:54:32] They look good." And I think they start at 270 miles range, which is right in the same sweet spot.

[00:54:41] Yeah, it is more money, though. I think it's starting around 55, 58,000.

[00:54:46] Yeah, I'm not sure what the price of the EV9 is, but you probably are not too far off on that one.

[00:54:53] Yeah, and the Ionic 9 for Hyundai recently was shown off.

[00:54:59] And I haven't really seen that one too much, but I would imagine it's pretty close to what the EV9 is.

[00:55:03] Yeah, I just checked. It's the EV9 starts at 56, 395.

[00:55:07] Okay.

[00:55:08] Yeah, so not cheap by any stretch of the imagination, but also if you need a car and you want something in that kind of form factor, that's a good option.

[00:55:19] Yeah, that $7,500 tax credit for both the EV9 as well as for the R2 will be a big difference maker.

[00:55:27] And that being able to bring it down not $1 below $40,000, but $2,500 below $40,000.

[00:55:37] And if you're in a state that offers an incentive, like Maryland offers, I think it's a $3,000 vehicle incentive.

[00:55:43] On that vehicle now I'm talking, you know, I'm not at $37,000, but I'm at like $34,000 below $35,000 if I just go at the base model.

[00:55:53] That's where people want to be on vehicle purchases, if not slightly below, but for an EV without the general maintenance.

[00:56:01] I mean, I'm not lying when I say I'm seven years into ownership.

[00:56:05] Have I had maintenance? I've had to do with my vehicle.

[00:56:08] Yeah, but there's more repairs of, oh, like, you know, this is acting funny, but other than that, it's been tire replacements.

[00:56:17] That's it.

[00:56:18] Like there is just no maintenance for EVs and that amount of money you save cannot be underscored versus having to do oil changes periodically, having to do timing belt and all the other little things, you know, belt replacement, all the little things that go with the combustion vehicle.

[00:56:34] It's just, charge it up and change the tires.

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[00:58:03] Alright, let's move to the R3.

[00:58:10] I don't think there wasn't as much detail on the R3 as we got on the R2, so this is going to not take nearly as long.

[00:58:21] R3, I think he kind of gave your initial, but why don't you restate your initial impression of the R3?

[00:58:27] So for me and for my lifestyle, it's definitely too small.

[00:58:30] It reminds me of like the, what is that, it's not the pilot, what's below the pilot brainframe?

[00:58:37] >> It's not the protege because I think that's above the path.

[00:58:41] >> Yeah, but it reminded me more of like that kind of mid, like that CRV.

[00:58:47] Thank you.

[00:58:48] Yeah, it reminded me more like of a CRV type size.

[00:58:50] For me and for my family, it's a little too small of a vehicle.

[00:58:54] However, the CRV is a massively popular vehicle.

[00:58:57] Most people don't have a four-child household.

[00:59:01] So it's a great small quote SUV for people to get in.

[00:59:06] I think it'll be wildly popular when it does hit the market.

[00:59:10] And if it does have a decent step down in price, I think that vehicle will be more popular

[00:59:18] than the R2.

[00:59:20] And without a doubt, I think it'll be more popular than the R3X.

[00:59:26] But I thought it looked good.

[00:59:28] It's just for my use case, it's a little smaller than what I would want.

[00:59:33] If you had to guess, what do you think that they would start this current?

[00:59:38] >> It has to be sub 40,000.

[00:59:40] I would think it's not -- and I would say it's too much off it.

[00:59:44] So I think they'd have to be somewhere around $36,000 to $38,000 has to be the starting

[00:59:50] price for that.

[00:59:51] Because then with federal discount, if it still applies by the time they release it,

[00:59:56] you could be talking about a sub $20,000 midsize SUV or a small SUV.

[01:00:03] >> Yeah.

[01:00:05] I was going to say like $39,999,999, no way.

[01:00:11] They're going to get as close to that $40,000 mark as humanly possible.

[01:00:15] It's a smaller car, but there's not a lot less in this car.

[01:00:19] So the margins are going to be lower on this vehicle, but potentially sell more of them.

[01:00:26] >> Yeah.

[01:00:27] But you'd hope by the time they release it, hopefully batteries are -- that are a larger

[01:00:30] volume scale, so the cost of batteries go down, which is the biggest thing that eats

[01:00:34] into the price for the vehicle.

[01:00:36] So hopefully that will come to their advantage so they can bring that vehicle in.

[01:00:41] And they're going to be competing with the likes of all the other manufacturers who I

[01:00:46] would imagine someone is going to say let's sneak into the small side of the SUV market

[01:00:50] and go for volume.

[01:00:52] I'd hope that they can get it into the mid 30s would be insanely good.

[01:00:58] If they get into low 30s, I think it would -- it would just blow it out the door.

[01:01:01] Because I don't -- if you remember the times where you could get the bolt, the bolt, and

[01:01:08] you could -- with federal and state tax incentives, people would be able to get those things for

[01:01:11] like 19 grand, like that thing was just going like hotcakes because it just hit that sweet

[01:01:17] spot.

[01:01:18] And that's where I think Rivian needs to -- hopefully they can focus on trying to bring

[01:01:21] it where with all the incentives, you could potentially get a stock vehicle without making

[01:01:28] any mods somewhere in the low to mid 20s.

[01:01:35] And it would go gangbusters, yeah.

[01:01:37] Yeah, nope, I completely agree.

[01:01:41] The -- let's see here, let me go back to the picture of this thing.

[01:01:47] You mentioned that it had a rally car feel to it, and they're definitely playing to

[01:01:53] that on the Rivian R3 website.

[01:01:59] The car itself, to me, the car looked like a little bit like a Mazda, maybe hatchback

[01:02:06] in the back.

[01:02:08] But the front is all Rivian, which makes it -- to me it's weird.

[01:02:11] The R3 is my least favorite Rivian vehicle at this point.

[01:02:16] But it's just that hatchback looks very strange.

[01:02:19] But a lot of people like that look.

[01:02:22] So both of the rabbets would jump to my mind when I saw it.

[01:02:25] Oh, yeah.

[01:02:26] Yeah.

[01:02:27] It's kind of got -- you know when you saw it first saw the back of an Ionic 6 and you're

[01:02:32] just like, "I don't even know what to think about this car."

[01:02:35] It's kind of got that feel.

[01:02:36] So the funny -- the first thing that jumped out to me when I saw the R3 was I hate these

[01:02:40] wheels that they showed on stage with it.

[01:02:42] I literally cannot stand these wheels.

[01:02:44] Now, I knew they have some alternatives, but for something about the "hubcap" look that

[01:02:49] they had on the R3, I just like -- I don't like this.

[01:02:53] Oh, the R3X.

[01:02:54] Let's look at that.

[01:02:55] Because the X is the performance version of the performance and more off-road.

[01:02:58] Yeah, that was more the car one, right?

[01:03:00] The R3X?

[01:03:01] Am I wrong on that one?

[01:03:03] Yeah.

[01:03:04] No, no, you're right.

[01:03:05] The R3X is just kind of more profile.

[01:03:11] It's more of a performance off-road-ready type of a vehicle.

[01:03:16] Let me see if I can pull up the picture here.

[01:03:23] Yeah, wheels -- I guess they kind of look like some of the other wheels that Rivian does

[01:03:30] in that design language.

[01:03:32] Oh, no, no.

[01:03:33] This is the wheels.

[01:03:34] The wheels are almost completely solid in the middle.

[01:03:36] Yeah, that's the one I just did not like this.

[01:03:39] Yeah, that's not a good look.

[01:03:40] It's like, in mind you, I couldn't stop like -- mind you, I think a lot of people were

[01:03:46] focused on the side view mirrors because they were like bright orange.

[01:03:51] But I could not take my mind off of the wheels.

[01:03:54] I was like, "I literally cannot stay on these wheels.

[01:03:58] It just doesn't seem like it fits the vehicle for me.

[01:04:02] But I know there's an audience who will love it."

[01:04:05] Yeah, it's like there was a look in the 70s when somebody popped the hubcap off and there

[01:04:12] would just be like this round thing.

[01:04:14] That sort of reminds me of -- yeah.

[01:04:17] Yeah, that's not a great look.

[01:04:21] They are three -- the hubs they had on that.

[01:04:25] I was like, "They're fine.

[01:04:26] They're not the sexiest wheels, but they're not ugly.

[01:04:29] They are 3X."

[01:04:30] I was like, "These are just hideous wheels, like you got -- there has to be another option

[01:04:33] of this."

[01:04:34] It almost felt like someone just said, "We ran out of time.

[01:04:37] Just throw something on there that you can find and they didn't see it until the day

[01:04:40] of the launch."

[01:04:42] For sure.

[01:04:45] Yeah.

[01:04:48] Somebody made a judgment call and then they're like, "That was the wrong call."

[01:04:52] It just -- I don't know how anybody could look at the vehicle and look at the wheels

[01:04:55] and say, "They like it."

[01:04:57] But again, I do know that my taste is not everybody's, but every time I look at the

[01:05:01] wheels, I'm like, it destroys what I think is otherwise a good looking vehicle for me.

[01:05:08] I want to be clear there.

[01:05:09] I don't want to -- my opinion isn't everybody's, but I just hate it.

[01:05:14] I hate it with a passion.

[01:05:16] Yeah.

[01:05:18] We promote on this show that whatever car you're attracted to is the right car for you,

[01:05:23] so it's okay to hate it.

[01:05:27] There are three X, has some fender flares on it.

[01:05:32] It sits up a little higher.

[01:05:33] It's based on the pictures that I'm looking at.

[01:05:36] It's got those wheels.

[01:05:37] It's got orange in terms of the -- the accent mirrors.

[01:05:43] Yeah, the accent mirrors, which is not -- I like the way they used color, but those two,

[01:05:49] the blue that they showed it with kind of clashes.

[01:05:52] It's not for me.

[01:05:54] Yeah.

[01:05:55] A good look.

[01:05:56] But I mean, I could definitely see somebody buying this and taking it off-road and really

[01:06:03] enjoying themselves if this is the kind of correct one.

[01:06:05] Right.

[01:06:06] I mean, I could see the mirror colors being optional.

[01:06:08] It's like, hey, this is -- we started with this, something a little edgy for a younger

[01:06:11] audience who's going to really be going to that.

[01:06:15] But it's -- everything else about the vehicle, I was like, I think this could be cool.

[01:06:19] This could be fun.

[01:06:20] And as I said, I would have -- if my -- I would have bought this for my kids, I just would

[01:06:23] have bought it with different wheels.

[01:06:26] Sure.

[01:06:27] Sure.

[01:06:28] Maybe you could even pop those off and pop something else on.

[01:06:30] Yeah.

[01:06:31] That might be a possibility.

[01:06:32] Although it does look like it's actually on there.

[01:06:35] So even with, like, the -- I think, like, even with my wife's Tesla, I have two sets

[01:06:40] of wheels for her on her Tesla.

[01:06:42] She has winter wheels, which are aftermarket, and she has summer wheels, which are the Tesla

[01:06:46] wheels.

[01:06:47] I don't think Tesla does a decent job with their wheels, but this one is -- this would

[01:06:53] be a -- if I could not get it with another wheel, I would take the stock wheels, and

[01:06:56] immediately the day it arrived, I would take it down to my neighbor's house, jack it up,

[01:07:00] and take the wheels off, and those would sit in the closet unless I needed it from the

[01:07:03] winter.

[01:07:04] Yeah.

[01:07:05] Yeah.

[01:07:06] I think that's a good way to handle it.

[01:07:09] That's going to do a handle it, for sure.

[01:07:10] I was talking a little bit about the rear hatchback.

[01:07:13] The whole lift gate will lift open.

[01:07:16] But then they had something called flipper glass so that you could just open up the window.

[01:07:20] You didn't have to open up the whole gate.

[01:07:22] And that flipper glass, actually, you can set the -- adjust the height like you can with

[01:07:27] the lift gate on the model.

[01:07:28] Very neat idea.

[01:07:29] And I think -- Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[01:07:33] Because my garage door is too small, and I think it was a guy -- I don't even want to

[01:07:37] credit who I think it was, because probably somebody else that told me somebody from the

[01:07:41] audience was like, "Hey, you know, you can adjust that, so it doesn't hit your garage

[01:07:43] door every time you open it."

[01:07:44] I didn't even know that.

[01:07:46] So yeah, that was a big benefit.

[01:07:49] I like the idea, because I think we've all gone to Home Depot with a vehicle that wasn't

[01:07:54] designed to go to Home Depot and get lumber, and knowing that you could stretch a piece

[01:07:58] of lumber.

[01:07:59] And that was probably the other thing that popped to my mind about the front folding seats

[01:08:02] in the R2 was I can go to Home Depot, I can get an eight-foot piece of lumber, and it's

[01:08:07] not sitting kind of on the dash, sloping down.

[01:08:11] I can slide it into the footwell across the top of the seat, and it's just like, if it

[01:08:17] has to come out the back of the vehicle, or if it can fit in the vehicle with a trunk

[01:08:19] close, it fits.

[01:08:22] That's what I thought when I saw the R3X is that I can just slide it in, pop it up the

[01:08:26] glass, tighten it down, and then I can drive home with a six or eight-foot piece of lumber,

[01:08:33] because we all multipurpose our vehicles.

[01:08:35] We always don't have a friend we can call with a truck that can go get stuff for us.

[01:08:39] Yeah.

[01:08:40] That's why I bought one about my car, I bought three moving blankets, and I just stowed them

[01:08:45] down in the little cubby in the back of my car, because you never know where you're going

[01:08:50] to be, where you have to put something in there, but also I don't want to ruin my new

[01:08:54] car.

[01:08:55] So that was the best, I don't know, best.

[01:09:00] That was one of my guilty pleasures on that car when I opened that up, and I saw that

[01:09:05] and I was like, "Oh, I've got, because it's Arizona, I've got like foldable coolers down

[01:09:11] there, so if I go grocery shopping, I can throw food in those coolers," and everything's

[01:09:16] out of the way.

[01:09:17] Nobody knows what's there.

[01:09:18] Yeah, and you live in a different, I mean right now, this time of year, you guys are,

[01:09:22] it still hasn't gotten to the blazing hot, but I know coming soon, like, coolers are

[01:09:27] used for you going to the grocery store.

[01:09:31] But I don't, many people don't live in, where it's going to be 114, 120 degrees in the summer,

[01:09:36] but right now, you guys are still pretty decent, like, it's not hot, but it's still a normal

[01:09:44] temperature for most of the country.

[01:09:47] We're hanging out in the 70s.

[01:09:48] We have a few days above, a few days below, but right over in the 70s.

[01:09:51] It's like the beautiful time in Arizona, I will say, I mean, like I say, I've spent

[01:09:55] a lot of time in Phoenix, which I don't know if you're close to the Phoenix area, but for

[01:09:59] me, I've gone into Phoenix, and to me, 120 degrees, it sucks, man.

[01:10:04] It's nice not to be smacking mosquitoes and doing all that garbage, all summer long.

[01:10:08] I love Phoenix.

[01:10:09] Yeah, yeah, I would rather a hot, just a very heat than a wet heat, for sure.

[01:10:16] So overall, we're going to come bring this all around.

[01:10:19] Rivian announcement is success.

[01:10:21] Absolutely, yeah.

[01:10:22] And it reflected in the stock price going up.

[01:10:24] So, yes.

[01:10:25] Yeah, you got a bump, you got a bump, for sure.

[01:10:28] Yeah.

[01:10:29] And, okay, so I thought it was a success.

[01:10:32] I'm always skeptical.

[01:10:34] And you have companies like Fisker or Lucid.

[01:10:38] Those folks are run by very charismatic marketing types that some people don't really care

[01:10:44] for.

[01:10:45] I think you're not a fan of Peter Rawlinson if I remember right.

[01:10:47] Yeah.

[01:10:48] I know a lot of people.

[01:10:49] Hamid Shojai, who founded Axosoft, had a whole conversation with him about Peter Rawlinson.

[01:10:55] And he is also not a fan.

[01:10:59] He just seems like an evil bond villain.

[01:11:01] Sorry.

[01:11:02] There are probably people who love the guy, but I just cannot get that thought of him

[01:11:05] out of my mind.

[01:11:06] Okay, so Rod, I have an experiment for you if you have time today.

[01:11:11] Go and listen to Fisker's earnings call and fast forward to their chief technology officer.

[01:11:19] And tell me that's not Peter Rawlinson cosplaying as a chief financial officer for Fisker.

[01:11:25] The Q1 earnings call, right?

[01:11:27] For Fisker?

[01:11:28] Q4.

[01:11:29] Q4.

[01:11:30] I'll put that up.

[01:11:31] Yeah, he switched, I think, last quarter.

[01:11:32] So either the Q3 or Q4, you'll hear him.

[01:11:35] But he sounds just like Peter Rawlinson, and I've had several people from England and

[01:11:39] the surrounding areas up there in the UK say, no, this guy sounds dead onto my ear to

[01:11:47] Peter Rawlinson.

[01:11:48] Wow.

[01:11:49] So another guy I'm going to hear is what you're saying.

[01:11:51] I don't know.

[01:11:52] He seems nice.

[01:11:53] But anyway, the whole point is, is that these companies will announce something to keep their

[01:12:00] stock price bolstered or to keep them in the news.

[01:12:03] I don't think Rivian necessarily did that in this situation.

[01:12:07] I think it definitely helped them.

[01:12:10] But I think RJ, again, just seems like a much more measured person in, I mean, he's a business

[01:12:19] person.

[01:12:20] I want to go too crazy in the compliment area, but he has a better sensibilities than a

[01:12:27] lot of the CEOs in the EV startup market.

[01:12:29] Let's say that.

[01:12:30] How is that?

[01:12:31] Yeah.

[01:12:32] He's a guy that you say, I feel comfortable that I could sit down and have a beer with

[01:12:34] him.

[01:12:35] It seems like he's super down to Earth.

[01:12:37] I don't know where he politically aligns.

[01:12:40] And know do I feel that he's going to say something that's going to dramatically offend

[01:12:43] me or make me regret the purchase of the vehicle like I would get with a very polarizing

[01:12:49] character like Elon Musk.

[01:12:51] Yeah.

[01:12:52] Yeah.

[01:12:53] Yeah.

[01:12:54] Elon Musk just recently, if I could break it around him, he recently complained about

[01:12:57] Jeff Bezos.

[01:12:58] X wife is spending her billions of dollars.

[01:13:00] I was like, who cares?

[01:13:01] It's her money.

[01:13:02] Who do?

[01:13:03] Why do you care?

[01:13:04] It's not your money.

[01:13:05] You don't have to have an opinion on everybody.

[01:13:08] That's, that's, my mom was very, and dad were very good about teaching me, like it's

[01:13:12] not necessary to have an opinion on everything.

[01:13:14] Yeah.

[01:13:15] You can, you can stay in your lane a little bit, which I don't like that.

[01:13:19] That frees because I think that's kind of, that doesn't let anybody ever have any sort

[01:13:23] of freedom to say something outside of their lane.

[01:13:27] But what I'm saying is you don't have to comment on everybody's business.

[01:13:30] That's also rude.

[01:13:31] I agree.

[01:13:32] That's really, I could not agree with you more.

[01:13:34] You're 100% right.

[01:13:35] All right.

[01:13:36] Well, I'm going to call it a success to Rod, do you want to tell everybody where they can

[01:13:40] find you and what?

[01:13:41] Yeah.

[01:13:42] So, if you want to, I mean, obviously I hang out with my buddies.

[01:13:45] I think you and Robert doing a podcast together here now.

[01:13:50] And you've probably heard Chris on talking about his, his truck, but we are all on the

[01:13:54] SMR podcast.

[01:13:55] You can reach me there.

[01:13:56] And Chris and I worked together and we run a barbecue podcast called barbecue and tech.

[01:14:03] And Chris actually just made a pivot in his career where he has a, he has a, a food truck

[01:14:08] in the Washington, DC area called barbecue and tech.

[01:14:10] So yeah, we've not just running a podcast about barbecue, but we're also, Chris is actually

[01:14:16] running a food truck in a career chain till late life career chain.

[01:14:19] So he's living his dream and I'm, I'm watching and enjoying and passionate about it.

[01:14:24] And I get to talk to him about barbecue all the time.

[01:14:26] So that's where you can find me.

[01:14:28] I am on Twitter or sorry, X as Rod, Rod Simmons on that platform.

[01:14:33] And yeah, that should be good.

[01:14:35] Yeah.

[01:14:36] And I'll, I'll throw another plug out for Chris's thing.

[01:14:40] You can, if you're in the Washington, DC area, you can follow him on Facebook and I'll put

[01:14:44] a link in the show notes for all of the things that Rod talked about today and where to find

[01:14:48] him.

[01:14:49] And I will say this, and this is with all genuine SMR podcasts, my favorite TV podcast.

[01:14:55] You guys only spend about 30, 40% of your time talking about EVs, but it's still like

[01:14:59] the, the takes that I get on the SMR podcast, I recycle them and I use them on.

[01:15:04] Hey, anytime you want me here, hopefully I'll get another invite within the next four

[01:15:08] years before the review.

[01:15:11] But anytime you want me, man, I love talking EVs, especially with somebody who is as passionate

[01:15:16] about them as I am and you are super passionate about EVs.

[01:15:21] So anytime I'm happy to be here.

[01:15:23] Okay.

[01:15:24] And the same goes anytime you'd like me to come on the SMR podcast and back you up because

[01:15:28] those other, those other two guys, I like a lot.

[01:15:31] No, go ahead.

[01:15:32] But this summer, when you guys are talking about the range thing with Tesla, I don't,

[01:15:36] I was screaming into my radio with Tesla having one range for when you leave the house versus

[01:15:44] one range for when you actually plan your trip out.

[01:15:46] Oh, yes.

[01:15:47] Yeah.

[01:15:48] Yeah.

[01:15:49] Well, I'll talk to Chris and Robin.

[01:15:50] We'll try to find a good time that we can get you on the show and we can just talk EVs

[01:15:54] and range and road tripping.

[01:15:55] I think it's good because you have some experience Chris had some, I have some and, and Rob is

[01:15:59] just along for the ride of why he hasn't bought one because Escalade doesn't have a electric

[01:16:03] vehicle yet for him and his giant man size.

[01:16:07] Yes.

[01:16:08] All right, Rod.

[01:16:09] Thank you so much for coming on.

[01:16:10] Thanks for having me.

[01:16:11] That was such a fun interview.

[01:16:14] And as much as I enjoyed actually sitting down and talking to Rod and doing that interview,

[01:16:19] I actually enjoyed it more when I was able to listen back.

[01:16:22] So hopefully you enjoyed it as much as I did.

[01:16:24] And Rod is, you know, very passionate about EVs and not only passionate, but well versed

[01:16:30] and knowledgeable in the EV space.

[01:16:33] So it was a lot of fun to talk to him and we will definitely get him on before another

[01:16:38] four years passes.

[01:16:39] All right, everybody.

[01:16:42] That is it for me this episode.

[01:16:43] I hope you all enjoyed it.

[01:16:45] If you want to email me, you can do so.

[01:16:47] It's bo D B O D I E at nine one eight digital dot com.

[01:16:51] You can also find me on Twitter at nine one eight digital or X and yeah, I hope everybody

[01:16:57] has a wonderful weekend and I will talk to you on Tuesday.

[01:17:01] Oh, on Tuesday, we are going to be sitting down with Gene Rubin, who is a cyber truck

[01:17:08] owner.

[01:17:09] So that's going to be a fun and exciting episode.

[01:17:11] All right, everybody.

[01:17:12] Take care of each other and I will talk to you on Tuesday.

[01:17:14] All right, everybody.

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